Kalachakra in Dzogchen Community

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reddust
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Re: Kalachakra in Dzogchen Community

Post by reddust »

We should include him in our practices. Pray his journey is short and sweet :namaste:
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Re: Kalachakra in Dzogchen Community

Post by padma norbu »

Pero wrote:I say seems because it could be just that the person writting this isn't aware what "ended his life" implies in English.
Based on everything, I am going to believe they aren't quite aware of the implications of that phrase and just mean his life ended. I hope. thanks for the explanation.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Kalachakra in Dzogchen Community

Post by rowboat »

padma norbu wrote:
Pero wrote:I say seems because it could be just that the person writting this isn't aware what "ended his life" implies in English.
Based on everything, I am going to believe they aren't quite aware of the implications of that phrase and just mean his life ended. I hope. thanks for the explanation.
I was very saddened to learn of Michael's death. I don't know how he lost his life, but it seems Padma Norbu is correct.

From the ancient Annals of Ulster, recording the death of the Norse Viking Ivar the Boneless:

Ímar, king of the Norsemen of all Ireland and Britain, ended his life.

And in the Fragmentary Annals of Ireland Ivar's death is recorded:

The king of Lochlainn, i.e. Gothfraid, died of a sudden hideous disease. Thus it pleased God.

So here we have evidence that the phrase "ended his life" is simply a common Nordic idiom for one who has died.

...

:candle:
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Re: Kalachakra in Dzogchen Community

Post by rowboat »

Bump
Vajraprajnakhadga
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Re: Kalachakra in Dzogchen Community

Post by Vajraprajnakhadga »

padma norbu wrote:I'm going to guess that the Dzogchen version of Kalachakra isn't anywhere near as demanding (lengthy, regular) a practice as the one the Dalai Lama gives.
Is any Nyingma practice as ornate as its corresponding Gelugpa version?
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Re: Kalachakra in Dzogchen Community

Post by RobertoKhorviano »

Does the Dalai Lama have the Longsal Transmission of Kalachakra from CHNNR (or is it vice versa according to dreams?). Does it mean HHDL could transmit it?
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Re: Kalachakra in Dzogchen Community

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

RobertoKhorviano wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:43 am Does the Dalai Lama have the Longsal Transmission of Kalachakra from CHNNR (or is it vice versa according to dreams?). Does it mean HHDL could transmit it?
ChNN said he received it while attending HHDL's Kalacakra wang event. And he did say that they are connected, the Longsal "belonging" to, or being a subsection of, HHDL's one, IIRC. No clue whether the Terton gave it to HHDL. One would need to ask the latter, I guess. If HHDL received it, then surely he can transmit it -- if he wants to. It is quite possible he can transmit it anyway, if it is indeed a variation of/elaboration on what he teaches.
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Re: Kalachakra in Dzogchen Community

Post by RobertoKhorviano »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:22 am
RobertoKhorviano wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:43 am Does the Dalai Lama have the Longsal Transmission of Kalachakra from CHNNR (or is it vice versa according to dreams?). Does it mean HHDL could transmit it?
ChNN said he received it while attending HHDL's Kalacakra wang event. And he did say that they are connected, the Longsal "belonging" to, or being a subsection of, HHDL's one, IIRC. No clue whether the Terton gave it to HHDL. One would need to ask the latter, I guess. If HHDL received it, then surely he can transmit it -- if he wants to. It is quite possible he can transmit it anyway, if it is indeed a variation of/elaboration on what he teaches.
Thanks for the reply :smile:

Pardon my ignorance but I'm wondering - though aware that HHDL is very busy and important - would it be possible to formally ask HHDL for such an initation? Like one would ask a Lama? I'm not knowledgeable enough on Tibetan "politics" but something like this would seem to align with HHDL's non-sectarian approach. Also HHDL himself supposedly stated that he is well aware that people don't have the time to practice a complicated Annutaratantra Sadhana so he considers the Kalachakra initiation as more of a blessing, planting a seed. Wouldn't more Anuyoga-style Kalachakra be more useful and actually "practise-able" (so at least people can do something) in this regard? Also this would give us the survival and continuation of a Longsal upadesha (a hot topic among DC members and fans on this forum). HHDL and CHNNR seemed to have good relationship. I mean nobody could challenge HHDL's right to give this transmission, right?
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Re: Kalachakra in Dzogchen Community

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

RobertoKhorviano wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:05 pmPardon my ignorance but I'm wondering - though aware that HHDL is very busy and important - would it be possible to formally ask HHDL for such an initation? Like one would ask a Lama? I'm not knowledgeable enough on Tibetan "politics" but something like this would seem to align with HHDL's non-sectarian approach. Also HHDL himself supposedly stated that he is well aware that people don't have the time to practice a complicated Annutaratantra Sadhana so he considers the Kalachakra initiation as more of a blessing, planting a seed. Wouldn't more Anuyoga-style Kalachakra be more useful and actually "practise-able" (so at least people can do something) in this regard? Also this would give us the survival and continuation of a Longsal upadesha (a hot topic among DC members and fans on this forum). HHDL and CHNNR seemed to have good relationship. I mean nobody could challenge HHDL's right to give this transmission, right?
It is certainly possible to approach HHDL and request such an initiation from him.
Likewise, it is perfectly possible to do so formally, as the DC-as-institution, for instance.
Just as it is entirely possible to ask HHDL to step in and become the President of the DC, or to help the DC in whatever way he finds suitable. What could be more natural, more proper, and more beneficial? HHDL and ChNN were indeed very close, and ChNN always stood by HHDL and trusted him implicitly. HHDL was for ChNN not just a model Guru, but a model tulku. Rinpoche saw him as Chenrezik, period.

It seems extremely unlikely that the DC will ever do any of these, however. And if the transmission is formally requested by a handful of students, then probably HHDL will politely decline the offer, if only not to stir any trouble.

If HHDL received the Longsal Ati Kalacakra from ChNN, then nobody would question HHDL's right to give it. If the situation is not as simple as that, there will surely be those who see it as illegitimate etc. As always.
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Re: Kalachakra in Dzogchen Community

Post by Pero »

Sorry but I disagree. If the Dalai Lama hasn't received this from Norbu Rinpoche then he cannot give it. It has never been any other way.
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Re: Kalachakra in Dzogchen Community

Post by Norwegian »

Aside from "has HHDL received it", "can HHDL give it", etc. I would like to add that from what I know, the office of HHDL are now very restrictive in who they allow to see HHDL, and how many, when etc. This is due to his age, and already busy schedules which they're trying to minimize, so as to not exhaust him.
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Re: Kalachakra in Dzogchen Community

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Pero wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:31 pm Sorry but I disagree. If the Dalai Lama hasn't received this from Norbu Rinpoche then he cannot give it. It has never been any other way.
Well, if Longsal Kalacakra is a subspecies of what HHDL teaches, then arguably this is a bit of a moot territory. (And it is also down to how much faith one has in HHDL, probably, as always.)

Anyway, these are ifs and maybes only.
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Re: Kalachakra in Dzogchen Community

Post by RobertoKhorviano »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:21 pm
RobertoKhorviano wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:05 pmPardon my ignorance but I'm wondering - though aware that HHDL is very busy and important - would it be possible to formally ask HHDL for such an initation? Like one would ask a Lama? I'm not knowledgeable enough on Tibetan "politics" but something like this would seem to align with HHDL's non-sectarian approach. Also HHDL himself supposedly stated that he is well aware that people don't have the time to practice a complicated Annutaratantra Sadhana so he considers the Kalachakra initiation as more of a blessing, planting a seed. Wouldn't more Anuyoga-style Kalachakra be more useful and actually "practise-able" (so at least people can do something) in this regard? Also this would give us the survival and continuation of a Longsal upadesha (a hot topic among DC members and fans on this forum). HHDL and CHNNR seemed to have good relationship. I mean nobody could challenge HHDL's right to give this transmission, right?
It is certainly possible to approach HHDL and request such an initiation from him.
Likewise, it is perfectly possible to do so formally, as the DC-as-institution, for instance.
Just as it is entirely possible to ask HHDL to step in and become the President of the DC, or to help the DC in whatever way he finds suitable. What could be more natural, more proper, and more beneficial? HHDL and ChNN were indeed very close, and ChNN always stood by HHDL and trusted him implicitly. HHDL was for ChNN not just a model Guru, but a model tulku. Rinpoche saw him as Chenrezik, period.

It seems extremely unlikely that the DC will ever do any of these, however. And if the transmission is formally requested by a handful of students, then probably HHDL will politely decline the offer, if only not to stir any trouble.

If HHDL received the Longsal Ati Kalacakra from ChNN, then nobody would question HHDL's right to give it. If the situation is not as simple as that, there will surely be those who see it as illegitimate etc. As always.
It seems very likely to me that HHDL would ask CHNNR for this transmission regardless of being a holder of Kalachakra... akin though not exactly the same to Longchenpa getting Khandro Nyingthig transmission from a human holder despite having already had relevant empowerements via pure visions. I thought that Sarmapas in general agree that even a tulku of a famed lineage holder has to receive the human transmission in this life regardless. I deem these situations similar though I have little knowledge on these topics so I'm not sure. Maybe there is someone who has this information or maybe CHNNR mentioned this during the 2014 Kalachakra retreat?

In any case CHNNR even mentions HHDL visiting Merigar specifically as an example of great merit for everyone involved in karmayoga of building the Gar. And HHDL is a Dzogchen teacher also.

All in all I think it would be worthwhile to get a group and politely make the request. The worst thing that can happen is that a bunch of people will get some - even if small - merit for requesting Dharma teachings.
Norwegian wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:00 pm Aside from "has HHDL received it", "can HHDL give it", etc. I would like to add that from what I know, the office of HHDL are now very restrictive in who they allow to see HHDL, and how many, when etc. This is due to his age, and already busy schedules which they're trying to minimize, so as to not exhaust him.
All the more reason to switch from long Kalachakra empowerements to much simpler Anu-Ati style way of the transmission (without discussing details here: like the Kalachakra empowerement used on Tenerife). This way giving empowerement would be less taxing for HHDL's human vehicle.
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Re: Kalachakra in Dzogchen Community

Post by Malcolm »

RobertoKhorviano wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:39 pm
All the more reason to switch from long Kalachakra empowerements to much simpler Anu-Ati style way of the transmission (without discussing details here: like the Kalachakra empowerement used on Tenerife). This way giving empowerement would be less taxing for HHDL's human vehicle.
Gelukpas and Sakyapas won’t accept theses kinds of empowerments as ripening empowerments, generally speaking.
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