Before Longchen Nyingthig, what was the most popular cycle?

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ConradTree
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Before Longchen Nyingthig, what was the most popular cycle?

Post by ConradTree »

Before Longchen Nyingthig, what was the most popular cycle?

Gongpa Zangthal right?
Malcolm
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Re: Before Longchen Nyingthig, what was the most popular cyc

Post by Malcolm »

ConradTree wrote:Before Longchen Nyingthig, what was the most popular cycle?

Gongpa Zangthal right?

Probably Konchog Chidu.
ConradTree
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Re: Before Longchen Nyingthig, what was the most popular cyc

Post by ConradTree »

Okay, forget about popular.

What was considered the best Menngagde cycle before Longchen Nyingthig?

Gonpa Zangthal right?
ngodrup
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Re: Before Longchen Nyingthig, what was the most popular cyc

Post by ngodrup »

Rigdzin Sogdrup?

Termas od Pema Lingpa?
Malcolm
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Re: Before Longchen Nyingthig, what was the most popular cyc

Post by Malcolm »

ConradTree wrote:Okay, forget about popular.

What was considered the best Menngagde cycle before Longchen Nyingthig?

Gonpa Zangthal right?

Khyentse Wangpo opines that the Gongpa Zangthal is the most profound of the Nyinthig cycles.
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conebeckham
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Re: Before Longchen Nyingthig, what was the most popular cyc

Post by conebeckham »

Lama Gongdu has mengagde level stuff, doesn't it?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Malcolm
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Re: Before Longchen Nyingthig, what was the most popular cyc

Post by Malcolm »

conebeckham wrote:Lama Gongdu has mengagde level stuff, doesn't it?
All of these do. Typically it is often stated there are three main Nyinthigs: the Nyingthig Yabshi is the most extensive, the Gongpa Zangthal is the middle length, and Ati Zabdon is the concise one.
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Drikung_Dzogchen
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Re: Before Longchen Nyingthig, what was the most popular cyc

Post by Drikung_Dzogchen »

I would be interested in Malcoms response to this but the Yangzab Terma cycle seems to be one of the first concise Nyingtig cycles revealed before the Longchen Nyingtig. It was revealed in the 1540's in the same cace where the Khandro Nyingtig was revealed. Gyalwang Rinchen Phuntsog who revealed the Yangzab Terma was very connected to the Khandro Nyingtig. He wrote a commentary on the Khandro Nyingtig that was taught in Vermont at the DDCV October 2013. I think it was Gyalwang Rinchen Phuntsogs intention that the Dzogrim teaching contained in the Khandro Nyingtig be referred to at the highest levels of Dzogchen practice. However in the late 19th century a Nyingma Lama said to be a reincarnation of Patrul Rinpoche wrote an extensive Dzogrim commentary on the Yangzab covering in great detail the practices of Korde Rushan up through Trekch and Thogyal. He passed it on to his root student who then transmitted it to Ven. Traga Rinpoche who taught it word by work from 2006 to 2010 over 7 retreats, over 150 hours of teachings. If I am correct the Longchen Nyingtig is also very related to the Khandro Nyingtig. And one of Jigme Lingpa's main practices was a different terma revealed by both Gyalwang Rinchen Phuntsog as well as his root student Sherab Ozer. I imagine that Jigme Lingpa could have very well received the Yangzab. Jigme Lingpa was devoted enough to Gyalwang Rinchen Phuntsog that he composed a short Namthar (life story) of his Rinchen Phuntsogs life. So I could be wrong but the Yangzab could be the first concise Nyingtig cycle based on the Nyingtig Yabshi, in particular the Khandro Nyingtig. The Yangzab contains everything necessary to traverse all the stages of Dzogchen practice. And yes it does have quite a few Wrathful practices but they are not the heart of the terma. We have to remember just how chaotic the 16th century was in Tibet. Gyalwang Rinchen Phuntsog who was equally a fully accomplished practitioner of Mahamudra and the traditional Drikung Kagyu teachings marks a turning point in the Drikung Kagyu lineage. He chose (in his Namthar was called by the Dakinis) to step down as the head of the Drikung Kagyu lineage and go to the mountains above Terdrom where he engaged in extensive retreat and revealed the Yangzab Terma. During this time period the Karma Kagyu and the Drikung Kagyu allied themselves against Ganden and went to war which proved to be a disaster for both lineages, Ganden prevailed. Though Gyalwang Rinchen Phuntsog was not involved in this war he undoubtedly had many enemies who wished him dead. Some of these enemies probably were from within the Drikung Kagyu lineage who help prejudices against the Nyingma teachings. So these wrathful practices were probably very necessary for the times he lived in. But though the Yangzab Terma cannot said to be the most popular cycle, that really matters very little. It has been maintained up to the present time. Gyalwang Rinchen Phuntsog transcended any type of sectarian lineage labels. He really is an early example of the Rime tradition. His root student Sherab Ozer who before meeting Rinchen Phuntsog was trained in the Sakya tradition, and possibly the Gelugpa to some degree. But more importantly he composed what may be the first Rime text outlining how all the lineages fit together as a whole and embody the Buddha's teachings without conflict. The great jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche of the 19th century who brought the Rime movement to full bloom references this text by Sherab Ozer. There is still much research to be done but there are many interesting questions here regarding these various connections. I would be interested in anyone's input as my knowledge is more limited. But I will finish with the following. Gyalwang Rinchen Phuntsog played a major (and not always acknowledged role) in shaping the Drikung Lineage down to the present time. Dudjom Rinpoche said that Rinchen Phuntsog helped save the Nyingma lineage when it was persecuted by the Gelugpa and certain transmissions were in danger of being broken. Rinchen Phuntsog transmitted the Nyingtig Yabshi as well as many other Nyingma transmissions to Lamas who would go on to be very important in upholding the Nyingma lineage. Also Rinchen Phuntsogs's son who was a throne holder of the Drikung lineage was the father to five Tulkus, two of which were the first HH Drikung Kyabgon Chetsang and the first HH Drikung Kyabgon Chutsang. From this time on the Drikung lineage would be led reincarnations of these two HH Drikung Kyabgon tulkus.The first HH Drikung Kyabgon Chutsang who is also known as Rigzen Chokyi Dragpa was said to be the reincarnation of Rinchen Phuntsog. His collected works comprise of about 15 volumes. He composed numerous Yangzab sadhanas based on the root Terma texts revealed by Rinchen Phuntsog making the practices clearer. The Shinje or Yamantaka practice which is very special to the Drikung Kagyu lineage entered the lineage through Rinchen Phuntsog. Rigzen Chokyi Dragpa or the first HH Drikung Kyabgon Chutsang had numerous Shinje pure visions which then became the Shinje Drubchen that is practiced down to the current day. So I know I have gone on into many different topics than what I started with but I welcome input or corrections and hope my ramblings are of some benefit.
Malcolm
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Re: Before Longchen Nyingthig, what was the most popular cyc

Post by Malcolm »

Drikung_Dzogchen wrote: If I am correct the Longchen Nyingtig is also very related to the Khandro Nyingtig.
No, it is related to the VIma Nyinthig.


And one of Jigme Lingpa's main practices was a different terma revealed by both Gyalwang Rinchen Phuntsog as well as his root student Sherab Ozer. I imagine that Jigme Lingpa could have very well received the Yangzab.
He did.

Jigme Lingpa was devoted enough to Gyalwang Rinchen Phuntsog that he composed a short Namthar (life story) of his Rinchen Phuntsogs life. So I could be wrong but the Yangzab could be the first concise Nyingtig cycle based on the Nyingtig Yabshi, in particular the Khandro Nyingtig.
That distinction goes to Ratna Lingpa.
The Yangzab contains everything necessary to traverse all the stages of Dzogchen practice. And yes it does have quite a few Wrathful practices but they are not the heart of the terma. We have to remember just how chaotic the 16th century was in Tibet. Gyalwang Rinchen Phuntsog who was equally a fully accomplished practitioner of Mahamudra and the traditional Drikung Kagyu teachings marks a turning point in the Drikung Kagyu lineage. He chose (in his Namthar was called by the Dakinis) to step down as the head of the Drikung Kagyu lineage and go to the mountains above Terdrom where he engaged in extensive retreat and revealed the Yangzab Terma. During this time period the Karma Kagyu and the Drikung Kagyu allied themselves against Ganden and went to war which proved to be a disaster for both lineages, Ganden prevailed. Though Gyalwang Rinchen Phuntsog was not involved in this war he undoubtedly had many enemies who wished him dead. Some of these enemies probably were from within the Drikung Kagyu lineage who help prejudices against the Nyingma teachings. So these wrathful practices were probably very necessary for the times he lived in. But though the Yangzab Terma cannot said to be the most popular cycle, that really matters very little. It has been maintained up to the present time. Gyalwang Rinchen Phuntsog transcended any type of sectarian lineage labels. He really is an early example of the Rime tradition. His root student Sherab Ozer who before meeting Rinchen Phuntsog was trained in the Sakya tradition, and possibly the Gelugpa to some degree. But more importantly he composed what may be the first Rime text outlining how all the lineages fit together as a whole and embody the Buddha's teachings without conflict. The great jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche of the 19th century who brought the Rime movement to full bloom references this text by Sherab Ozer. There is still much research to be done but there are many interesting questions here regarding these various connections. I would be interested in anyone's input as my knowledge is more limited. But I will finish with the following. Gyalwang Rinchen Phuntsog played a major (and not always acknowledged role) in shaping the Drikung Lineage down to the present time. Dudjom Rinpoche said that Rinchen Phuntsog helped save the Nyingma lineage when it was persecuted by the Gelugpa and certain transmissions were in danger of being broken. Rinchen Phuntsog transmitted the Nyingtig Yabshi as well as many other Nyingma transmissions to Lamas who would go on to be very important in upholding the Nyingma lineage. Also Rinchen Phuntsogs's son who was a throne holder of the Drikung lineage was the father to five Tulkus, two of which were the first HH Drikung Kyabgon Chetsang and the first HH Drikung Kyabgon Chutsang. From this time on the Drikung lineage would be led reincarnations of these two HH Drikung Kyabgon tulkus.The first HH Drikung Kyabgon Chutsang who is also known as Rigzen Chokyi Dragpa was said to be the reincarnation of Rinchen Phuntsog. His collected works comprise of about 15 volumes. He composed numerous Yangzab sadhanas based on the root Terma texts revealed by Rinchen Phuntsog making the practices clearer. The Shinje or Yamantaka practice which is very special to the Drikung Kagyu lineage entered the lineage through Rinchen Phuntsog. Rigzen Chokyi Dragpa or the first HH Drikung Kyabgon Chutsang had numerous Shinje pure visions which then became the Shinje Drubchen that is practiced down to the current day. So I know I have gone on into many different topics than what I started with but I welcome input or corrections and hope my ramblings are of some benefit.
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Re: Before Longchen Nyingthig, what was the most popular cyc

Post by Drikung_Dzogchen »

"Jigme Lingpa was a reincarnation of both Vimalamitra himself and King Trisong Detsen, who was a recipient of Nyingthig teachings from Guru Rinpoche [Padmasambhava] and Vimalamitra. So the Nyingthig teachings of two major lineages flowed together in Jigme Lingpa. Longchen Nyingthig is the essence or embodiment of the two Nyingthig traditions, Vima Nyingthig and Khandro Nyingthig."
Tulku Thondup

You are right, there is the Vima Nyingthig connection but Tulku Thondup says Longchen Nyingthig is also essence of Khandro Nyingthig.

Also, I have no interest in advertising the Yangzab terma cycle but for those who have a connection with it they might find some of this history helpful.

I also have unanswered questions I am trying to get clarification on from those who know more than myself.

I am also not trying to put any Dzogchen cycle above another. I hope it does not come across that way because that is not my intent.
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Re: Before Longchen Nyingthig, what was the most popular cyc

Post by Malcolm »

Drikung_Dzogchen wrote:
You are right, there is the Vima Nyingthig connection but Tulku Thondup says Longchen Nyingthig is also essence of Khandro Nyingthig.
Sort of, the Rigdzin Dupa is definitely modeled on a very similar sadhana found in the Khandro Nyinthig. But the Dzogchen teachings in the LN depend primarily on the Vima Nyinthig.

The Khandro Nyinthig is more or less a combination of Nyinthig with Anuyoga practices of various kinds.
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Re: Before Longchen Nyingthig, what was the most popular cyc

Post by ConradTree »

Malcolm wrote: Khyentse Wangpo opines that the Gongpa Zangthal is the most profound of the Nyinthig cycles.
:cheers:

Yes that's also my opinion.

Now, what is your opinion on the most profound Nyinthig cycle?
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Re: Before Longchen Nyingthig, what was the most popular cyc

Post by Malcolm »

ConradTree wrote:
Malcolm wrote: Khyentse Wangpo opines that the Gongpa Zangthal is the most profound of the Nyinthig cycles.
:cheers:

Yes that's also my opinion.

Now, what is your opinion on the most profound Nyinthig cycle?

Well, having translated the whole thing, I think that there places where the GZ is definitely clearer than the VN, and its Vārāhī instructions are infinitely more detailed than what you find in the KN or the KYN.

But I don't have really any personal opinion about it. Its all good Dharma.
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Re: Before Longchen Nyingthig, what was the most popular cyc

Post by ConradTree »

Malcolm wrote: Well, having translated the whole thing
What do you think of Erik Pema Kunsang's translations?

Nowadays, he translates rigpa as "knowing" and marigpa as "unknowing".

He translated a tiny bit of Gonpa Zangthal in Wellsprings of the Great Perfection.
Malcolm
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Re: Before Longchen Nyingthig, what was the most popular cyc

Post by Malcolm »

ConradTree wrote:
Malcolm wrote: Well, having translated the whole thing
What do you think of Erik Pema Kunsang's translations?

Nowadays, he translates rigpa as "knowing" and marigpa as "unknowing".

He translated a tiny bit of Gonpa Zangthal in Wellsprings of the Great Perfection.

eric's translations are fine, but our styles are very different. His translation of rig pa and ma rig pa are perfectly correct, though I would prefer ma rig pa as ignorance i.e. avidyā.
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Re: Before Longchen Nyingthig, what was the most popular cyc

Post by ConradTree »

Malcolm wrote: Well, having translated the whole thing, I think that there places where the GZ is definitely clearer than the VN, and its Vārāhī instructions are infinitely more detailed than what you find in the KN or the KYN.
Well that info, combined with what you said in your blog post: http://www.atikosha.org/2012/09/a-preli ... itras.html

makes it seem like the Gonpa Zangthal is the best menngadge cycle.
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Re: Before Longchen Nyingthig, what was the most popular cyc

Post by heart »

ConradTree wrote:
Malcolm wrote: Well, having translated the whole thing, I think that there places where the GZ is definitely clearer than the VN, and its Vārāhī instructions are infinitely more detailed than what you find in the KN or the KYN.
Well that info, combined with what you said in your blog post: http://www.atikosha.org/2012/09/a-preli ... itras.html

makes it seem like the Gonpa Zangthal is the best menngadge cycle.
Whatever you manage to properly receive from a Guru who will really get to you is the "best menngadge cycle". Chasing the most profound transmission is an endless game.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Before Longchen Nyingthig, what was the most popular cyc

Post by Sherlock »

Is the Tibetan preference to practice newer terma cycles justified?

One reason I can think of is perhaps that some of the older teachings only remain as empowerments and lungs instead of actual practice (which is why samayas for them are said to be not perfect, rather than transmitters of those cycles going out and deliberately breaking their samayas?), but then there are still prominent teachers and practitioners using the Northern Treasures for example. Apparently there is still Zernga in the Byangter while it was unknown to Jigmed Lingpa. Not sure if other lineages still do it though, but ChNN did teach Zernga.
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