Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Malcolm
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Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote:
Sherlock wrote:You can read his book, large portions are available on Google books. But basically he didn't accept the idea of termas at all.

Sarah Harding compiles some of the criticisms of Aris' approach even from a scholarly perspective.
I read that book years ago, then burnt it. He seems to have beef with Pema Lingpa that goes far beyond any rationale explanation.

/magnus
Why? It is an interesting book. Sounds like Nazis burning books because they were written by Jews.
pensum
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Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by pensum »

heart wrote:A burnt seed can never be the cause of any fruit, so whatever we think about this subject if we don't believe these teachings comes from "someones" realization then we have broken samaya and left the sphere of vajrayana altogether. That said I do like you a lot pensum and even if I never met Malcolm I do enjoy his brilliant intellect and his flair for drama.

/magnus
On the vital point we are in agreement Magnus, and that's all that matters, all the rest including how one personally defines an "author" of a text, is just personal karma. As for myself, my main concern is how do we give a good account of our tradition within a contemporary highly heterogenous culture, where Buddhists of all ilks, Christians from Catholic to Seventh-Day Adventist, Muslims whether Shiite, Sunni or Sufi, First Peoples, Aborigines, Africans, atheists, pagans, etc. etc. freely intermingle. Considering the debates and disagreements that were and still are so common in even a highly homogenous Buddhist culture like Tibet, it seems imperative to dig down and find what is essential and can be beneficial without recourse to proclamations of faith. If we are to save all beings then it can only be done by respecting one another's beliefs, seeking together the root of suffering which is common to all no matter their race or creed, and respecting the other enough to allow them the space and freedom to sever the root of their own accord. The fact is that everyone can discover the nature of their own mind, it's readily accessible to all and at all times. And that knowledge, that intuition, insight or whatever you want to call the state of rigpa is unassailable by any belief or argument, nor reliant upon any history or claim. True confidence only arises from experiencing it for oneself. It remains unsullied no matter how poorly one might express its ineffability, nor is it improved in any way by being expressed eloquently or logically. It is from that small insight, freely available to all regardless, that all the elaborations and complexities arise and it is into that same small insight that they all collapse. About this there can be no doubt, for it is the most intimate knowledge, the very essence of all experience and the only thing that is truly one's own.
Last edited by pensum on Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
pensum
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Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by pensum »

Malcolm wrote:Sounds like Nazis burning books because they were written by Jews.
In this specific case, wouldn't Jews burning books because they were written by Nazis be the more accurate analogy? :thinking:
Sherlock
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Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by Sherlock »

pensum wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Sounds like Nazis burning books because they were written by Jews.
In this specific case, wouldn't Jews burning books because they were written by Nazis be the more accurate analogy? :thinking:
What's the difference? They are both burning books because they don't like the authors.

(Not comparing magnus to either Jews or Nazis)

But yeah, I think that response sounds a bit extreme, although I certainly don't agree with Aris.
pensum
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Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by pensum »

Sherlock wrote:
pensum wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Sounds like Nazis burning books because they were written by Jews.
In this specific case, wouldn't Jews burning books because they were written by Nazis be the more accurate analogy? :thinking:
What's the difference? They are both burning books because they don't like the authors.

(Not comparing magnus to either Jews or Nazis)

But yeah, I think that response sounds a bit extreme, although I certainly don't agree with Aris.
I was just thinking that in this case it is the persecuted that is doing the book burning, that's all.

(and personally i am looking forward to reading Aris's book. i usually learn the most from reading ideas that i don't 100% agree with as they sharpen my critical faculties and having my own beliefs, assumptions and understanding challenged only further clarifies the essential for me. Davidson's two books are a good example, for where he may stray or overreach with his argument, there is much there which is worth consideration and beneficial to know. )
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by dzogchungpa »

Malcolm wrote:Sounds like Nazis burning books because they were written by Jews.
Godwin's law strikes again!
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Rinchen Dorje
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Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by Rinchen Dorje »

Maybe this guy Aris is one of those who in the past wrote against the terma tradition in Tibet? And maybe when he was dying he was thinking "those damn terma people, heretics, scammers" and maybe he was/is this Aris guy now? What a long strange trip its been eh?
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
Sherlock
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Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by Sherlock »

I think he was mainly Theravadin, at least later in his life when he wrote that book.
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heart
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Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote: A burnt seed can never be the cause of any fruit, so whatever we think about this subject if we don't believe these teachings comes from "someones" realization then we have broken samaya and left the sphere of vajrayana altogether. That said I do like you a lot pensum and even if I never met Malcolm I do enjoy his brilliant intellect and his flair for drama.
There is no samaya that says we must believe this or that text is a product of someone's realization, even a tantra or a sutra.

Why do you think there was and is controversy around things like Shugden, Termas etc.? Certainly the Shugden folks believe their protector comes from someone's realization. The people who disbelieve in Shugden think the person who tells them Shugden is a mistaken practice is realized.

In general the recommended approach is that if you are not sure of a teaching, don't criticize it because you might unwittingly criticize and authentic teaching of the Buddhas.

However, origin stories are not Dharma. Disbelieving the claim that some text was written by Padmasambhava or Vimalamitra, then hidden and then dug up 800 years later in some backwater in Kham where it is unlikely Padmasambhava ever set foot hardly constitutes breaking "samaya". Disbelieving that Buddha taught Guhyasamaja to Indrabhuti I hardly constitutes breaking samaya. Disbelieving that the eighteen tantras fell on the roof of King Za's house and then he had to recruit Kukuraja to understand them is hardly breaking samaya.

"Breaking samaya" means trying to turn people against the Dharma. No one is doing that here.
Calling the 17 Tantras a scam is really close to turning people against the Dharma. Because scams are not Dharma, pretty simple.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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heart
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Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by heart »

Fa Dao wrote:Maybe this guy Aris is one of those who in the past wrote against the terma tradition in Tibet? And maybe when he was dying he was thinking "those damn terma people, heretics, scammers" and maybe he was/is this Aris guy now? What a long strange trip its been eh?
Yes, that is it. The whole book smells like a personal vendetta against Pema LIngpa in particular and Vajrayana in general. It is not science.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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heart
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Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote:
Why? It is an interesting book. Sounds like Nazis burning books because they were written by Jews.
Should I have thrown it in the garbage instead, is that more respectful? Anyway you just lost the argument.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Malcolm
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Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Why? It is an interesting book. Sounds like Nazis burning books because they were written by Jews.
Should I have thrown it in the garbage instead, is that more respectful? Anyway you just lost the argument.

/magnus

No magnus, you should have given it to a library. Burnng books is like censoring views, we don't encouragre that in a free society.
dzoki
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Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by dzoki »

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Why? It is an interesting book. Sounds like Nazis burning books because they were written by Jews.
Should I have thrown it in the garbage instead, is that more respectful? Anyway you just lost the argument.

/magnus

No magnus, you should have given it to a library. Burnng books is like censoring views, we don't encouragre that in a free society.
Hey, he bought a book, in a free society he can do whatever he wants with it.
Malcolm
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Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by Malcolm »

dzoki wrote: Hey, he bought a book, in a free society he can do whatever he wants with it.
It's a fundamentalist act, that is the point. Sure, he can do what he likes, just like I can fart in a car full of people, but that does not mean that everyone will like it.

:soapbox:

We have huge problems with fundamentalism in the world today, Christian fundamentalism, Muslim Fundamentalism, etc. Let's not add to it with Buddhist fundamentalism.
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Sönam
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Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by Sönam »

dzoki wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Should I have thrown it in the garbage instead, is that more respectful? Anyway you just lost the argument.

/magnus

No magnus, you should have given it to a library. Burnng books is like censoring views, we don't encouragre that in a free society.
Hey, he bought a book, in a free society he can do whatever he wants with it.
You mistake free society and liberal one ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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heart
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Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote:
dzoki wrote: Hey, he bought a book, in a free society he can do whatever he wants with it.
It's a fundamentalist act, that is the point. Sure, he can do what he likes, just like I can fart in a car full of people, but that does not mean that everyone will like it.

:soapbox:

We have huge problems with fundamentalism in the world today, Christian fundamentalism, Muslim Fundamentalism, etc. Let's not add to it with Buddhist fundamentalism.
Really Malcolm, now I am a fundamentalist? I burnt the book as this is what I been told is the best thing to do with Dharma articles like old sadhanas texts and so on. I showed Michael Aris book a lot more respect than he shoved Pema Lingpa and Tibetan Buddhism.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Malcolm
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Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote: Calling the 17 Tantras a scam is really close to turning people against the Dharma. Because scams are not Dharma, pretty simple.
Did I call the 17 tantras a scam? No. I simple asserted that they were composed in the 11th century. Just like Kalacakra was composed in the 10th century, Hevajra and the Laghusamvara in the 9th, Guhyasamaja in the 8th and so on.
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heart
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Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote: Calling the 17 Tantras a scam is really close to turning people against the Dharma. Because scams are not Dharma, pretty simple.
Did I call the 17 tantras a scam? No. I simple asserted that they were composed in the 11th century. Just like Kalacakra was composed in the 10th century, Hevajra and the Laghusamvara in the 9th, Guhyasamaja in the 8th and so on.
Inventing a lineage is a classic scam, no?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Malcolm
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Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote: Calling the 17 Tantras a scam is really close to turning people against the Dharma. Because scams are not Dharma, pretty simple.
Did I call the 17 tantras a scam? No. I simple asserted that they were composed in the 11th century. Just like Kalacakra was composed in the 10th century, Hevajra and the Laghusamvara in the 9th, Guhyasamaja in the 8th and so on.
Inventing a lineage is a classic scam, no?

/magnus

If you choose to see it that way. I don't. I see it very much along the same lines as placing the words of Mahāyāna sūtras in the mouth of the Buddha, when it is impossible that the historical Buddha even spoke one word of them, let alone all 108 volumes of them and more. I evaluate the texts on what they say, not on the basis of their supposed origins. I think it is a superior approach when a text is evaluated on its actual content rather than who supposedly spoke it.

Let me put it another way, when Amoghavajra [i.e. Shingon tradition] claims that Nāgārjuna took the tantras out of an iron tower in South India, I also do not believe that story. That does not mean I think that the practice of the Vajradhātu mandala is spurious or worthless.

Given the environment of the 11th century, if the authors of the 17 tantras came out and said "We wrote these books, and because we have realized the meaning contained therein, you should practice this" no one would have believed them.
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heart
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Re: Longde before Dzin Dharmabodhi?

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote:
If you choose to see it that way. I don't. I see it very much along the same lines as placing the words of Mahāyāna sūtras in the mouth of the Buddha, when it is impossible that the historical Buddha even spoke one word of them, let alone all 108 volumes of them and more. I evaluate the texts on what they say, not on the basis of their supposed origins. I think it is a superior approach when a text is evaluated on its actual content rather than who supposedly spoke it.

Let me put it another way, when Amoghavajra [i.e. Shingon tradition] claims that Nāgārjuna took the tantras out of an iron tower in South India, I also do not believe that story. That does not mean I think that the practice of the Vajradhātu mandala is spurious or worthless.

Given the environment of the 11th century, if the authors of the 17 tantras came out and said "We wrote these books, and because we have realized the meaning contained therein, you should practice this" no one would have believed them.
We are still waiting for your translation of the 17 Tantras in order to evaluate its actual content. But in my opinion if you wanted to make a believable story about the origin of a text you wrote you would have traveled to India and made sanskrit copies of them. The lineage that Zhangton Tashi Dorje provide is laughable in comparison the Sarma lineages. No wonder so relatively few people believed in them at the time. This is what don't make sense.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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