Madhyamaka vs Dzogchen - Is this right?

Madhyamaka vs Dzogchen - Is this right?

Postby ConradTree » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:32 pm

Madhyamaka........................................Dzogchen
freedom from extremes.......................... freedom from extremes
dependent origination.............................kadag, lhun grub and thugs rje
two truths...........................................discards two truths
no tantric features............................direct introduction, dream yoga, dark retreat, description of death process, description of empty clarity etc.
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Re: Madhyamaka vs Dzogchen - Is this right?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:24 pm

ConradTree wrote:Madhyamaka........................................Dzogchen
freedom from extremes.......................... freedom from extremes
dependent origination.............................kadag, lhun grub and thugs rje
two truths...........................................discards two truths
no tantric features............................direct introduction, dream yoga, dark retreat, description of death process, description of empty clarity etc.


Something like that. Dzogchen is a part of secret mantra.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


One who explains any Dharma
without possessing trustworthy scriptures,
has a conceptual nature,
spoiling himself and spoiling others.

-- Ghanavyūha Sūtra
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Re: Madhyamaka vs Dzogchen - Is this right?

Postby conebeckham » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:25 pm

I'd replace the last pair with this:

Analytical Meditation---------------------Tantric practices
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.
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Re: Madhyamaka vs Dzogchen - Is this right?

Postby ConradTree » Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:26 pm

Malcolm wrote:Something like that. Dzogchen is a part of secret mantra.


So pretty much the only similarity is freedom from extremes right?
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Re: Madhyamaka vs Dzogchen - Is this right?

Postby smcj » Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:55 pm

ConradTree wrote:So pretty much the only similarity is freedom from extremes right?

Well, no. Madhyamaka is an intellectual idea. Dzogchen starts with an idea, but is primarily a practice and experience. There is no Madhyamaka "practice". It is a paradigm (or perhaps better said a denial of a paradigm) cultivated in preparation for practice.

The case could be made that the two ideas are dissimilar also, but enough has been said about that elsewhere already.
Last edited by smcj on Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is a tradition of making a distinction between two different perspectives on the nature of emptiness: one is when emptiness is presented within a philosophical analysis of the ultimate reality of things, in which case it ought to be understood in terms of a non-affirming negative phenomena. On the other hand, when it is discussed from the point of view of experience, it should be understood more in terms of an affirming negation.
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Re: Madhyamaka vs Dzogchen - Is this right?

Postby ConradTree » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:02 pm

I asked "the only similarity is freedom from extremes right"?

You are talking about differences, which I already addressed in my table in the first post.

Lastly, I am asking Malcolm
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Re: Madhyamaka vs Dzogchen - Is this right?

Postby smcj » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:05 pm

ConradTree wrote:I asked "the only similarity is freedom from extremes right"?

You are talking about differences, which I already addressed in my table in the first post.

D'oh! :rolleye:
There is a tradition of making a distinction between two different perspectives on the nature of emptiness: one is when emptiness is presented within a philosophical analysis of the ultimate reality of things, in which case it ought to be understood in terms of a non-affirming negative phenomena. On the other hand, when it is discussed from the point of view of experience, it should be understood more in terms of an affirming negation.
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Re: Madhyamaka vs Dzogchen - Is this right?

Postby asunthatneversets » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:40 pm

ConradTree wrote:Madhyamaka........................................Dzogchen
freedom from extremes.......................... freedom from extremes
dependent origination.............................kadag, lhun grub and thugs rje
two truths...........................................discards two truths
no tantric features............................direct introduction, dream yoga, dark retreat, description of death process, description of empty clarity etc.

Madhyamaka ultimately discards the two truths as well, they are just a pedagogical methodology. Dzogchen also has dependent origination, which proliferates beginning with avidyā just like Madhyamaka. Madhyamaka uses analysis as its main praxis and doesn't work with energy, so it doesn't work with lhun grub.

A proper Madhyamaka view is quite helpful with setting up correct inferential views in Dzogchen though, take this from Rigdzin Chökyi Drakpa for example:

"On the path of tregchö, all the rigidity of mind's clinging to an 'I' where there is no 'I', and a self where there is no self, is cut through with Madhyamaka Prasangika reasoning and the resulting conviction that an 'I' or a 'self' does not exist. Then, by examining where mind arises, dwells and ceases, you become certain of the absence of any true reality."
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Re: Madhyamaka vs Dzogchen - Is this right?

Postby ConradTree » Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:51 pm

There is no dependent origination in Dzogchen.

Dzogchen has kadag, lhun grub and thugs rje.
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Re: Madhyamaka vs Dzogchen - Is this right?

Postby asunthatneversets » Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:52 pm

ConradTree wrote:There is no dependent origination in Dzogchen.

Dzogchen has kadag, lhun grub and thugs rje.

In the system of Dzogchen, dependent origination begins with non-recognition. The conditioned phenomena of avidyā arise dependently. It may be true that from the standpoint of vidyā, dependent origination is seen for what it is, but as long as there is no recognition then appearance is reified in an afflictive way and dependent origination applies.

This is the specific model of dependent origination [twelve nidānas] which is pertinent in this case; one fails to recognize the appearances of the basis to be self-originated wisdom display, delusion [avidyā] ensues, and the remaining eleven links follow accordingly.
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Re: Madhyamaka vs Dzogchen - Is this right?

Postby Herbie » Wed May 06, 2015 10:19 am

ConradTree wrote:Madhyamaka........................................Dzogchen
freedom from extremes.......................... freedom from extremes
dependent origination.............................kadag, lhun grub and thugs rje
two truths...........................................discards two truths
no tantric features............................direct introduction, dream yoga, dark retreat, description of death process, description of empty clarity etc.


Wow, that's a niece piece of brief comparative summary and very good basis for a comparative study of systems' non-conventional linguistic expressions and their corresponding psycho-philosophies. Thank you!

What would be interesting is: when the two-truths-model is discarded then this necessarily entails a one-truth-model, right? Even if this "one truth" is kind of paradoxical like "The truth is that there are no (real) truths."(negative expression) or "The truth is that everything is (equally) true." (positive expression).
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