Dharma Wheel

A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism
It is currently Mon Dec 22, 2014 3:13 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Lhathong
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm
Posts: 1502
Interesting post Thigle. Hopefully you can post some more.

_________________
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lhathong
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm
Posts: 1444
thigle wrote:
asunthatneversets, you may read and study a lot about Dzogchen and you may know a lot of tibetan terms, but your academical, religious and sectarian point of view "on" Dzogchen, isn't Dzogchen. Better you stop distracting the invisible reader by seeding doubt and mixing up everything.

This is projection of the shadow, meaning; you are addressing your own conduct.

thigle wrote:
I'm a buddhist, and buddhism is for everybody, even for non-buddhists. This teachings are true, not faked. They are self-secret, therefore it needs nobody to protect. You understand, or not. Better one cannot understand the teachings, before one misunderstand the teachings, because of "mixing up" everything or academical speculations. Where's Kalden Y. when one needs him.. :D.

Well, you're a big boy or girl (whichever you may be) Thigle, and can make your own choices, which you are, so have at it. I will say however that your statements in this thread are inaccurate in my opinion, for whatever that is worth, which isn't much according to those in your corner. And that is okay, someone has to carry the degenerate age forward, you appear quite enthusiastic to do so.

Vajrayāna is "self-secret" because it carries various meanings - outer, inner, secret, innermost secret - the principles are cloaked in esoteric symbology, which means it appears one way to an outsider, but means something specific to the practitioner. That is self-secrecy. Self-secrecy can also mean the definitive meaning is only truly understood by those who actualize it, but that fact does not mean you are free to broadcast and parade the practices openly to anyone. Why do you think the material which contains some of the points you addressed concludes with "samaya, gya, gya, gya"? If you have transmission for the teaching you are referencing it is profoundly secret, and you maintain that secrecy in body, speech and mind. At any rate, you aren't listening to me (or anyone for that matter) anyway, because you already know better than we, so carry on Thigle.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lhathong
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm
Posts: 1502
He edited his post. I don't see anything secret in what posted. Can you point out what you think are the offending parts of his post?

_________________
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lhathong
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:46 pm
Posts: 117
Location: Salzburg
Andrew108 wrote:
He edited his post. I don't see anything secret in what posted.


I edited the post, but I have removed nothing. It's described before, what "self-protection" or "self-secret" means. It's nothing magical. It's just because of grasping. There are a lot of other possible introductions. Like: "Just sit". But maybe, now you practice "just sitting", because... (you know why)... Yes, that's Soto-Zen. Or is it Dzogchen? Or is it just Buddhism? Or is it just the way everything works? It seems, there's a self-protection in Shikantaza to. But that's no problem. Like for other buddhist teachings, in the beginning is always practice or practiced nonpractice, because of grasping. Even in our daily life. It's just important, to realise this one day, like Mr. Siddhārtha Gautama in the end of his odyssee trough many states of mind because of his fabricated focus on the breath.

It's good to see such reactions like from my academic/tantric friend. Because this is always the reaction, if someone shows authentic teachings and not just tantric or academical appetizer, sold as "Dzogchen", because the sect want's you and you and you. Why they holding authentic primordial nonpractice teachings secret, has very mundane reasons. I have nothing to do with their artificial drama; no more in this life. It's for everybody. It must be for everybody, if you are a Buddhist or not. Even for beings in hell.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lhathong
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:21 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm
Posts: 1502
thigle wrote:
Like for other buddhist teachings, in the beginning is always practice or practiced nonpractice, because of grasping. Even in our daily life. It's just important, to realise this one day, like Mr. Siddhārtha Gautama in the end of his odyssee trough many states of mind because of his fabricated focus on the breath.


Definitely.


thigle wrote:
It's good to see such reactions like from my academic/tantric friend. Because this is always the reaction, if someone shows authentic teachings and not just tantric or academical appetizer, sold as "Dzogchen", because the sect want's you and you and you. Why they holding authentic primordial nonpractice teachings secret, has very mundane reasons. I have nothing to do with their artificial drama; no more in this life. It's for everybody. It must be for everybody, if you are a Buddhist or not. Even for beings in hell.


Again I agree with this. But I know those who hold a scholarly view will call you a heretic or some such thing. Then they will try to say that you know nothing and have no experience. Or that you are Neo-Advaita or New Age.

_________________
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lhathong
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:23 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am
Posts: 2552
And what if their teacher has asked them not to participate in such discussions on online forums thigle ?
At least one well known Dzogchen teacher has done just that.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lhathong
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm
Posts: 1444
thigle wrote:
It's good to see such reactions like from my academic/tantric friend. Because this is always the reaction, if someone shows authentic teachings and not just tantric or academical appetizer, sold as "Dzogchen", because the sect want's you and you and you. Why they holding authentic primordial nonpractice teachings secret, has very mundane reasons. I have nothing to do with their artificial drama; no more in this life. It's for everybody. It must be for everybody, if you are a Buddhist or not. Even for beings in hell.

This is always the reaction from those who champion the conduct you are exhibiting as well. 

You also haven't shown any authentic teachings per se. Giving a brief summary of practices and then relaying your own misinterpretations of their praxis isn't showing "authentic teachings", which is precisely why these practices should be given to a student from a qualified teacher. It's one thing to discuss the teachings themselves, the various points and views which apply to the system in the context being explored, but an entirely different thing to give examples of practice and then proceed to provide your own conclusions regarding their result. That is reckless. Not even the teacher does that, for the very reason that it defeats the theme and purpose of empirical investigation. The skillful means is to allow the discovery or realization to flower in the mind stream of the practitioner through proper application of the intimate instructions... not to plant concepts of the result prior to the individual engaging in the sadhāna, that is the opposite of skillful.

At any rate, my teacher just yesterday addressed this erroneous concept that the teachings are kept secret for the mundane reasons you are alluding to. The idea that the teachings are divisively withheld so that the teacher can recruit more students is patently false. 

When it comes down to it, it's ultimately neither here nor there, if certain individuals have the karma to encounter your interpretations and buy into it then that is their own limitation to work through. Your cavalier attitude regarding this whole matter is concerning to say the least though. It is true the teachings are for any and everyone, but within the right setting.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lhathong
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:46 pm
Posts: 117
Location: Salzburg
Jep Andrew,

Andrew108 wrote:
But I know those who hold a scholarly view will call you a heretic or some such thing. Then they will try to say that you know nothing and have no experience. Or that you are Neo-Advaita or New Age.


just projections. Look around in this forum. Lot of Advaita/Neo-Advaita/New-Age views. Everything is "nondual" on dharmawheel. Look at this topic. They not even know why they want to ban something. This secret society'nes in the context of buddhist teachings, is a tantric tibetan illness. They are more interestet in insignificant discussions like this, instead of the possible traps, described in the text. Maybe because they are just academics and/or in such a trap. Have a nice weekend :smile: .


Last edited by thigle on Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lhathong
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm
Posts: 1444
thigle wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:
But I know those who hold a scholarly view will call you a heretic or some such thing. Then they will try to say that you know nothing and have no experience. Or that you are Neo-Advaita or New Age.


Just projections. Look around in this forum. Lot of Advaita/Neo-Advaita/New-Age views. Everything is "nondual" on dharmawheel. Look at this topic. They not even know why they want to ban something. This secret society'nes in the context of buddhist teachings, is a tantric tibetan illness.

I took a quick glance and there hasn't been any (Neo) Advaita or new-age "non-dual" views expressed on this thread thus far. Nor has anyone advocated for secret societies.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lhathong
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am
Posts: 2552
Simon E. wrote:
And what if their teacher has asked them not to participate in such discussions on online forums thigle ?
At least one well known Dzogchen teacher has done just that.



bump.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lhathong
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm
Posts: 1502
Why the bump?

_________________
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lhathong
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm
Posts: 1444
Andrew108 wrote:
Why the bump?

Simon, your bump has not received the Mustang Cave seal of approval.



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lhathong
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am
Posts: 2552
Andrew108 wrote:
Why the bump?


My question to thigle, who clearly has views on the issue, was not entirely rhetorical.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lhathong
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am
Posts: 2552
Mustang Cave ? Ah, all becomes clear... :tongue:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lhathong
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am
Posts: 2191
thigle wrote:
Why they holding authentic primordial nonpractice teachings secret, has very mundane reasons. I have nothing to do with their artificial drama; no more in this life. It's for everybody. It must be for everybody, if you are a Buddhist or not. Even for beings in hell.

No, actually there is a functional reason it is kept secret. As ChNN has said;
Quote:
A human being has his limits. And thus in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits.

Of all the teachings and perspectives that are offered in Dharma, none is more readily reduced to an ignorant interpretation than the non-dual/Dzogchen type teachings. It becomes nothing more than a word game, a mind-****. It becomes a classic case of reading the menu instead of eating the meal.

_________________
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lhathong
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am
Posts: 3043
On a cloudless open day a Philips torch reveals the sun beams better.
My shared thoughts about are making more clouds to find the brightful sky better.

_________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG_lNuNUVd4


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lhathong
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:39 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:46 pm
Posts: 117
Location: Salzburg
smcj wrote:
No, actually there is a functional reason it is kept secret


There's only a functional reason why authentic primordial nonpractice teachings are self-secret and self-protected. This reason is grasping. Conceptual reification. As I explained before. For example, the menngagde task v1: "Don't focus on anything", has nothing to do with the practice v2: "Don't focus on anything". Both tasks sounds like the same, but they are different. Let me expand this example: "Don't focus on anything for a while .. and natural looseness is immediate-obvious". If one cannot understand/realise the true meaning of v1, he cannot understand the true meaning of "immediate-obvious natural looseness". Maybe he believe he understands the teaching, because he practiced v2 and after that he seems to be naturally loosed to, but his "natural looseness" has nothing to do with the primordial natural looseness which is meant in the menngagde-teaching. This is just a short example. You can extrapolate this in much bigger dimensions.

It's really a problem in every public dzogchen forum I know, because most of the people in such a forum, have their insights just from v2 (therefore grasping) and calling this "dzogchen". But that's just a copy. And this copy spreads rapidly. It's really hard to discuss with representatives of this copy, because in their eyes, one is an heretic or something else; inverted world. Why this copy spreads rapidly? Because of this artificial tibetan security-drama, there's no concrete public information about authentic dzogchen; therefore menngagde. Their shot goes to the rear. It's important not to mix up everything, because the representatives of the copy have already mixed up everything.

Therefore, what is really self-secret in authentic primordial nonpractice teachings? Ones own process of grasping/reified conceptualisation/fabrication. Therefore, the process of ones own grasping/reified conceptualisation/fabrication is the self-protecing mechanism. But that's no problem, because as I said in this message before, one can learn a lot about this process and one have to learn a lot about this process, before one can understand/realise the true meaning of v1. Therefore, this self-protection is in fact just wisdom/compassion. There's no need to suppress this natural self-protection through this artificial tibetan drama. What form of "public information about authentic dzogchen" is needed in our times? More distinctive wisdom from the endoperspective. One has to point out the possible traps of direct experience, rather than to make them secret. But this does not protect against grasping. Even if you know the difference between v1 and v2. Everybody needs to go through. But now you know the tunnel you're in exactly.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lhathong
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm
Posts: 1444
Thigle, you are comparing apples and oranges. On the one hand you're pontificating about meditation executed through the veil of mind versus the non-meditation of resting in uncontrived dharmatā. For the most part you are preaching to the choir, but are acting as of you're expounding some profound species of inside knowledge we are all unfamiliar with. You are being quite presumptuous and are underestimating the caliber of practitioner who frequents these forums. As much as you'd like to believe it, the type of misunderstandings you are referencing are not found here often. And if you perceive that they are (occurring often), then you are reading through the foggy lense of your own misunderstanding.

The aspect which isn't making sense is your contention that respecting intimate instructions is indicative of confusing mind for dharmatā, as if those who actually know dharmatā would be willing to throw everything out the window and nihilistically disavow tradition etc., like you are. This is a misguided assertion, which does not escape mind (or 'grasping' as you put it) any more than embracing tradition does (both are equally relative, but one actually serves a purpose and function). Which means you have really only succeeded in attaching to an opposite extreme in view, and are parading it as somehow more accurate than the views you are attempting to defame, these are games of mind. An accurate knowledge of dharmatā does not require the rejection of tradition, culture, principle, praxis, or anything of that nature. The ultimate nature does not contradict conventional applications. For the ultimate is simply an accurate wisdom which directly knows the nature of that which the conventional and relative appear to suggest.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lhathong
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Posts: 1999
Location: France
:good:

Sönam

_________________
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], qwerty13, Stewart and 13 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group