Dharma Wheel

Of course I believe in bardo of dharmata. As Namdrol says, the realization of rainbow body occurs IN the bardo of dharmata:

Malcolm wrote: rainbow body you realize the exhaustion of phenomena while in the bardo of dharmatā i.e. during thugdam.

Obviously rainbow body occurs, so obviously bardo of dharmata occurs.

However I have come to believe that bardo of dharmata only appears for long dedicated Dzogchen practitioners who have made significant progress.

Why is there no mention of bardo of dharmata before Dzogchen Menngagde for example?

ConradTree wrote:Of course I believe in bardo of dharmata. As Namdrol says, the realization of rainbow body occurs IN the bardo of dharmata:

Malcolm wrote: rainbow body you realize the exhaustion of phenomena while in the bardo of dharmatā i.e. during thugdam.

Obviously rainbow body occurs, so obviously bardo of dharmata occurs.

However I have come to believe that bardo of dharmata only appears for long dedicated Dzogchen practitioners who have made significant progress.

Bardo of dharmatā occurs for everyone, but only experienced practitioners can recognize it.

Why is there no mention of bardo of dharmata before Dzogchen Menngagde for example?

Because the bardo of Dharmatā is connected with thögal.

M

Malcolm wrote: Because the bardo of Dharmatā is connected with thögal.

Yes that's my entire point.

Bardo of dharmata only appears for long dedicated thogal practitioners.

ConradTree wrote:

Malcolm wrote: Because the bardo of Dharmatā is connected with thögal.

Yes that's my entire point.

Bardo of dharmata only appears for long dedicated thogal practitioners.

No, it appears to everyone. The explanation of the bardo of dharmatā however is connected with thogal. Thogal can be seen as a method to recognize this bardo if you do not achieve rainbow body in this life (most won't).

Further, you don't have to be some long dedicated practitioner. If you have confidence in the experience of the first vision, this is sufficient for recognizing the bardo of dharmatā.

M

Then how come only at a certain point do the visions occur during sleep?

This is where my recent doubt stems from.

ConradTree wrote:Then how come only at a certain point do the visions occur during sleep?

This is where my recent doubt stems from.

Sleep is like death, by analogy; but it is not death since one is still connected with this life's body.

Malcolm wrote:Sleep is like death, by analogy; but it is not death since one is still connected with this life's body.

If exhaustion of phenomena for regular rainbow body occurs at bardo of dharmata, then bardo of dharmata must occur before separation with body.

ConradTree wrote:

Malcolm wrote:Sleep is like death, by analogy; but it is not death since one is still connected with this life's body.

If exhaustion of phenomena for regular rainbow body occurs at bardo of dharmata, then bardo of dharmata must occur before separation with body,

It occurs after.

Malcolm wrote:It occurs after.

See:

Malcolm wrote: rainbow body you realize the exhaustion of phenomena while in the bardo of dharmatā i.e. during THUGDAM.

You said thugdam

ConradTree wrote:

Malcolm wrote:It occurs after.

See:

Malcolm wrote: rainbow body you realize the exhaustion of phenomena while in the bardo of dharmatā i.e. during THUGDAM.

Yes, there is no contradiction. At this point is impossible to revive the person. We can consider therefore the link between body and mind has been severed.

Malcolm wrote: Yes, there is no contradiction. At this point is impossible to revive the person. We can consider therefore the link between body and mind has been severed.

If the link has been severed, you wouldn't get rainbow body phenomena like shrinking.

ConradTree wrote:

Malcolm wrote: Yes, there is no contradiction. At this point is impossible to revive the person. We can consider therefore the link between body and mind has been severed.

If the link has been severed, you wouldn't get rainbow body phenomena like shrinking.

If the link had not been severed, you could revive the person.

"Shrinking" is not rainbow body.

In any event, exhaustion of dharmatā happens more easily in the bardo. Only the very best of the best practitioners show any signs of rainbow body at all. Most practitioners get realization in the bardo of dharmatā. Please consult birth, life and death where this process is explained very well.

Malcolm wrote: "Shrinking" is not rainbow body.

I didn't say it was.

I said "rainbow body phenomena"

Emphasis on the phenomena.

Malcolm wrote: In any event, exhaustion of dharmatā happens more easily in the bardo. Only the very best of the best practitioners show any signs of rainbow body at all. Most practitioners get realization in the bardo of dharmatā. Please consult birth, life and death where this process is explained very well.

I get it. It all about recognizing the bardo of dharmata.

My concern was whether bardo of dharmata really appears for everyone.

ConradTree wrote:

Malcolm wrote: In any event, exhaustion of dharmatā happens more easily in the bardo. Only the very best of the best practitioners show any signs of rainbow body at all. Most practitioners get realization in the bardo of dharmatā. Please consult birth, life and death where this process is explained very well.

I get it. It all about recognizing the bardo of dharmata.

My concern was whether bardo of dharmata really appears for everyone.

It really appears to everyone, down to the tiniest creature.

Malcolm wrote: It really appears to everyone, down to the tiniest creature.

If bardo of dharmata occurs after separation, then why would nirmanakaya phowa through the crown prevent bardo of dharmata from appearing?

Why do you have to choose?