HUM or HUNG?

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HUM or HUNG?

Postby Fa Dao » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:34 pm

I have noticed that some Dzogchen teachers use HUM while others use HUNG..is there really a difference energetically?
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: HUM or HUNG?

Postby asunthatneversets » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:54 pm

Fa Dao wrote:I have noticed that some Dzogchen teachers use HUM while others use HUNG..is there really a difference energetically?

I'd say it's best to go with whichever was used in the transmission you received, but ultimately it doesn't make much difference. Chögyal Namkhai Norbu just recently told the story of Sakya Pandita and the yogi who mispronounced "vajrakilaya" as "chili chilaya", read that story sometime if you get a chance, puts things in perspective with discrepancies like this.
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Re: HUM or HUNG?

Postby Fa Dao » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:57 pm

I remember that story..good one. and yes, i always go with whatever transmission..was just wondering if there was a difference
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Re: HUM or HUNG?

Postby pensum » Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:32 pm

This is simply a question of the English spelling not accurately reflecting the proper Sanskrit pronunciation, especially considering the preference to not use diacritics in publications for general readership (a proper transliteration would be Huṃ). So how its written phoneticization is of little import and subject to the translator's personal preference.
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Re: HUM or HUNG?

Postby Fa Dao » Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:59 pm

Pensum..I have heard that except I have heard different teachers pronounce it distinctly both ways
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Re: HUM or HUNG?

Postby pensum » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:25 pm

Fa Dao wrote:Pensum..I have heard that except I have heard different teachers pronounce it distinctly both ways


Certainly, people with different accents pronounce things differently, just like Canadians and Americans pronounce "out and about" differently. And the various regions of Tibet have various accents and pronunciations as well, for example Khyentse is pronounced either with a hard "k" or a soft "ch". I don't doubt that in ancient India Sanskrit itself was pronounced differently according to various accents as well.
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Re: HUM or HUNG?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:28 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:I have noticed that some Dzogchen teachers use HUM while others use HUNG..is there really a difference energetically?

I'd say it's best to go with whichever was used in the transmission you received, but ultimately it doesn't make much difference. Chögyal Namkhai Norbu just recently told the story of Sakya Pandita and the yogi who mispronounced "vajrakilaya" as "chili chilaya", read that story sometime if you get a chance, puts things in perspective with discrepancies like this.



ChNN always tells this story. The background is that Sapan wrote a text called "How to Pronounce Mantras", in which he makes a strong argument that it is better to pronounce mantras according to rules of Sanskrit pronunciation. He notes that reciting mantras incorrectly may contain blessings, but they are more effective if one tries to pronounce them as well as possible. Naturally, there was a reaction against this idea by many Tibetans even in Sakya.

M
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Re: HUM or HUNG?

Postby Fa Dao » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:23 pm

Thank you Malcolm...
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: HUM or HUNG?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:49 pm

pensum wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:Pensum..I have heard that except I have heard different teachers pronounce it distinctly both ways


Certainly, people with different accents pronounce things differently, just like Canadians and Americans pronounce "out and about" differently. And the various regions of Tibet have various accents and pronunciations as well, for example Khyentse is pronounced either with a hard "k" or a soft "ch". I don't doubt that in ancient India Sanskrit itself was pronounced differently according to various accents as well.


Yes, in Bengal, Vajra was probably pronounced "bazra", as in Kashmir, and also Nepal. In Central India, i.e. Varanasi, "Wajra". Benzar on the other hand...
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Re: HUM or HUNG?

Postby Pero » Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:ChNN always tells this story. The background is that Sapan wrote a text called "How to Pronounce Mantras", in which he makes a strong argument that it is better to pronounce mantras according to rules of Sanskrit pronunciation. He notes that reciting mantras incorrectly may contain blessings, but they are more effective if one tries to pronounce them as well as possible. Naturally, there was a reaction against this idea by many Tibetans even in Sakya.

Why? I mean I'd get that if he'd say if you don't pronounce them correctly you get absolutely nothing, which is obviously not the case.
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Re: HUM or HUNG?

Postby Sönam » Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:43 am

Pero wrote:
Malcolm wrote:ChNN always tells this story. The background is that Sapan wrote a text called "How to Pronounce Mantras", in which he makes a strong argument that it is better to pronounce mantras according to rules of Sanskrit pronunciation. He notes that reciting mantras incorrectly may contain blessings, but they are more effective if one tries to pronounce them as well as possible. Naturally, there was a reaction against this idea by many Tibetans even in Sakya.

Why? I mean I'd get that if he'd say if you don't pronounce them correctly you get absolutely nothing, which is obviously not the case.


I've heard him saying that, for the transmission to operate, it has to be pronounced the way it has been transmitted. Hence the story he tells about the hermit ... therefore it would have no sense to pronounce it "according to rules of Sanskrit pronunciation"

Sönam
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Re: HUM or HUNG?

Postby Pero » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:15 am

Sönam wrote:
Pero wrote:
Malcolm wrote:ChNN always tells this story. The background is that Sapan wrote a text called "How to Pronounce Mantras", in which he makes a strong argument that it is better to pronounce mantras according to rules of Sanskrit pronunciation. He notes that reciting mantras incorrectly may contain blessings, but they are more effective if one tries to pronounce them as well as possible. Naturally, there was a reaction against this idea by many Tibetans even in Sakya.

Why? I mean I'd get that if he'd say if you don't pronounce them correctly you get absolutely nothing, which is obviously not the case.


I've heard him saying that, for the transmission to operate, it has to be pronounced the way it has been transmitted. Hence the story he tells about the hermit ... therefore it would have no sense to pronounce it "according to rules of Sanskrit pronunciation"

Sönam

The problem with that is that somewhere along the line someone garbled up the pronounciation, so there was at least one who mispronounced what was transmitted to him and it all still works. That said I still pronounce the way I heard it pronounced by my teachers.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: HUM or HUNG?

Postby Sönam » Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:25 am

Pero wrote:
Sönam wrote: ...

I've heard him saying that, for the transmission to operate, it has to be pronounced the way it has been transmitted. Hence the story he tells about the hermit ... therefore it would have no sense to pronounce it "according to rules of Sanskrit pronunciation"

Sönam

The problem with that is that somewhere along the line someone garbled up the pronounciation, so there was at least one who mispronounced what was transmitted to him and it all still works. That said I still pronounce the way I heard it pronounced by my teachers.


Yes, it's a problem ... I suppose because of our limitations.

Sönam
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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