Dharma Wheel

I have noticed that some Dzogchen teachers use HUM while others use HUNG..is there really a difference energetically?

Fa Dao wrote:I have noticed that some Dzogchen teachers use HUM while others use HUNG..is there really a difference energetically?

I'd say it's best to go with whichever was used in the transmission you received, but ultimately it doesn't make much difference. Chögyal Namkhai Norbu just recently told the story of Sakya Pandita and the yogi who mispronounced "vajrakilaya" as "chili chilaya", read that story sometime if you get a chance, puts things in perspective with discrepancies like this.

I remember that story..good one. and yes, i always go with whatever transmission..was just wondering if there was a difference

This is simply a question of the English spelling not accurately reflecting the proper Sanskrit pronunciation, especially considering the preference to not use diacritics in publications for general readership (a proper transliteration would be Huṃ). So how its written phoneticization is of little import and subject to the translator's personal preference.

Pensum..I have heard that except I have heard different teachers pronounce it distinctly both ways

Fa Dao wrote:Pensum..I have heard that except I have heard different teachers pronounce it distinctly both ways

Certainly, people with different accents pronounce things differently, just like Canadians and Americans pronounce "out and about" differently. And the various regions of Tibet have various accents and pronunciations as well, for example Khyentse is pronounced either with a hard "k" or a soft "ch". I don't doubt that in ancient India Sanskrit itself was pronounced differently according to various accents as well.

asunthatneversets wrote:

Fa Dao wrote:I have noticed that some Dzogchen teachers use HUM while others use HUNG..is there really a difference energetically?

I'd say it's best to go with whichever was used in the transmission you received, but ultimately it doesn't make much difference. Chögyal Namkhai Norbu just recently told the story of Sakya Pandita and the yogi who mispronounced "vajrakilaya" as "chili chilaya", read that story sometime if you get a chance, puts things in perspective with discrepancies like this.

ChNN always tells this story. The background is that Sapan wrote a text called "How to Pronounce Mantras", in which he makes a strong argument that it is better to pronounce mantras according to rules of Sanskrit pronunciation. He notes that reciting mantras incorrectly may contain blessings, but they are more effective if one tries to pronounce them as well as possible. Naturally, there was a reaction against this idea by many Tibetans even in Sakya.

M

Thank you Malcolm...

pensum wrote:

Fa Dao wrote:Pensum..I have heard that except I have heard different teachers pronounce it distinctly both ways

Certainly, people with different accents pronounce things differently, just like Canadians and Americans pronounce "out and about" differently. And the various regions of Tibet have various accents and pronunciations as well, for example Khyentse is pronounced either with a hard "k" or a soft "ch". I don't doubt that in ancient India Sanskrit itself was pronounced differently according to various accents as well.

Yes, in Bengal, Vajra was probably pronounced "bazra", as in Kashmir, and also Nepal. In Central India, i.e. Varanasi, "Wajra". Benzar on the other hand...

Malcolm wrote: ChNN always tells this story. The background is that Sapan wrote a text called "How to Pronounce Mantras", in which he makes a strong argument that it is better to pronounce mantras according to rules of Sanskrit pronunciation. He notes that reciting mantras incorrectly may contain blessings, but they are more effective if one tries to pronounce them as well as possible. Naturally, there was a reaction against this idea by many Tibetans even in Sakya.

Why? I mean I'd get that if he'd say if you don't pronounce them correctly you get absolutely nothing, which is obviously not the case.

Pero wrote:

Malcolm wrote: ChNN always tells this story. The background is that Sapan wrote a text called "How to Pronounce Mantras", in which he makes a strong argument that it is better to pronounce mantras according to rules of Sanskrit pronunciation. He notes that reciting mantras incorrectly may contain blessings, but they are more effective if one tries to pronounce them as well as possible. Naturally, there was a reaction against this idea by many Tibetans even in Sakya.

Why? I mean I'd get that if he'd say if you don't pronounce them correctly you get absolutely nothing, which is obviously not the case.

I've heard him saying that, for the transmission to operate, it has to be pronounced the way it has been transmitted. Hence the story he tells about the hermit ... therefore it would have no sense to pronounce it "according to rules of Sanskrit pronunciation"

Sönam

Sönam wrote:

Pero wrote:

Malcolm wrote: ChNN always tells this story. The background is that Sapan wrote a text called "How to Pronounce Mantras", in which he makes a strong argument that it is better to pronounce mantras according to rules of Sanskrit pronunciation. He notes that reciting mantras incorrectly may contain blessings, but they are more effective if one tries to pronounce them as well as possible. Naturally, there was a reaction against this idea by many Tibetans even in Sakya.

Why? I mean I'd get that if he'd say if you don't pronounce them correctly you get absolutely nothing, which is obviously not the case.

I've heard him saying that, for the transmission to operate, it has to be pronounced the way it has been transmitted. Hence the story he tells about the hermit ... therefore it would have no sense to pronounce it "according to rules of Sanskrit pronunciation"

Sönam

The problem with that is that somewhere along the line someone garbled up the pronounciation, so there was at least one who mispronounced what was transmitted to him and it all still works. That said I still pronounce the way I heard it pronounced by my teachers.

Pero wrote:

Sönam wrote: ...

I've heard him saying that, for the transmission to operate, it has to be pronounced the way it has been transmitted. Hence the story he tells about the hermit ... therefore it would have no sense to pronounce it "according to rules of Sanskrit pronunciation"

Sönam

The problem with that is that somewhere along the line someone garbled up the pronounciation, so there was at least one who mispronounced what was transmitted to him and it all still works. That said I still pronounce the way I heard it pronounced by my teachers.

Yes, it's a problem ... I suppose because of our limitations.

Sönam