White Ah and Thigle

mike-b
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat May 10, 2014 8:32 pm

White Ah and Thigle

Postby mike-b » Sat May 10, 2014 8:47 pm

Hi everyone,

I am new to this forum, as i am to Dzogchen. I received the transmission from Namkhai Norbu via the webcast recently and am not sure what i was hoping to experience. I did feel something but I'm sure this is a very personal thing, so i won't go into it at the moment.
The help that i need is with the Guruyoga visualization of the white 'Ah' and Thigle. I am hoping not to sound too stupid, but as someone very much into sitting meditation (Soto Zen) would i be right in thinking that i visualize the 'Ah' and thigle at my heart and hold this image for as long as possible, or do i visualize it straight on, as if in front of me.

Sorry if this question is confusing, i'm sure there will be many more in the future,

Thank you,

Mike

CrawfordHollow
Posts: 265
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 10:56 pm

Re: White Ah and Thigle

Postby CrawfordHollow » Sat May 10, 2014 11:16 pm

Hi Mike,

Welcome to the party!

The white A and thigle is not an object of meditation used to hold your attention. It is a symbol, symbolizing your primordial nature (sound, light and rays specifically). At this point it would be best for you to view it as the essence of all of your teachers and the teachings that you have received. In particular you should realize that it is linked to Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche and the transmission that you have received.

The whole point of this practice is to get into the same state as the guru. After you sound the A with the visualization the best thing to do is to relax completely. It is in this state of relaxed awareness that you can discover this primordial awareness, what Rinpoche calls instant presence. Having experience of this state is called rigpa, and in a way the whole point of Dzogchen is to become more and more familiar with it and integrate it into all of your experiences.

You will learn that the sitting meditation that you may be used to, no matter how developed, uses your mind, while the purpose of guru yoga is to enter a state that is beyond mind.

If you become a member of the Dzogchen Community you can purchase a book called Guru Yoga that will clarify this approach. There is a wonderful book called The Crystal and the Way of Light, written by Namkahi Norbu Rinpoche, that would be a good place for you to start learning about dzogchen.

This forum is also an invaluable resource, and you will find many folks far more knowledgeable than myself that can help you. Hopefully this crude explanation didn't create more confusion and misunderstanding.

This has been my first post in many months, so I just want to give a shout out to all my friends at Dharma Wheel, its good to be back!

User avatar
florin
Posts: 875
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: White Ah and Thigle

Postby florin » Sat May 10, 2014 11:39 pm

"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

CrawfordHollow
Posts: 265
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 10:56 pm

Re: White Ah and Thigle

Postby CrawfordHollow » Sat May 10, 2014 11:54 pm

My guess would be that the meaning of the symbol would have little effect on the function of the practice because the state of instant presence does not merely represent the teacher, but is the actual union with the teacher.

The ability to recognize that state rests on the transmission and the introduction, not on any conceptual understanding, or for that matter, any specific practice itself.

Of course, the understanding behind the symbol is important, especially for those of us who hold samaya with other teachers.

As always, don't take my words for anything other than the opinion of a poor, uneducated little rodent.

krodha
Posts: 2125
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: White Ah and Thigle

Postby krodha » Sun May 11, 2014 12:50 am


Andrew108
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: White Ah and Thigle

Postby Andrew108 » Sun May 11, 2014 8:36 am

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Andrew108
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: White Ah and Thigle

Postby Andrew108 » Sun May 11, 2014 8:40 am

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

User avatar
florin
Posts: 875
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: White Ah and Thigle

Postby florin » Sun May 11, 2014 10:04 am

This question about the projected meaning into the symbol arose from what CNNr said once when speaking about symbols. He gave the example of where one seeing someone else waving at them as in "come here" they would instantly know the meaning of that gesture.The gesture in itself is just a vehicle by which one is introduced to the meaning behind that gesture.
So I was thinking that this would make perfect sense when it comes to using the white A as a means to connect with and discover our true nature.In that sense the A would have to carry a meaning , an ultimate meaning.
The A is the gesture, the sign which introduces one to the signified.But in order for the bypassing into the ultimate meaning, to occur the sign would have to be imbued with that meaning from the start.
I think this is also the case in longde where one having all the signs together one is introduced , in a very experiential way , by way of these signs , to the basis.
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

mike-b
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat May 10, 2014 8:32 pm

Re: White Ah and Thigle

Postby mike-b » Sun May 11, 2014 10:38 am

Thank you all for your posts, i guess i have a lot to learn about Dzogchen, i'm not so sure that i experienced Rigpa during the transmission and i'm also not sure how relevant this is. So rather than hold the image of the 'Ah', as i have been doing, this is just while sounding Ah, then relaxing in awareness (as in Shikantaza?) How important are secondary practices, is it possible to practice guruyoga without the Tun, does this improve the quality of the practice? And finally, for the moment, what are Gakyil? i keep seeing this word n the internet and have no idea what it is

Thank you all for your posts,

MIke

Andrew108
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: White Ah and Thigle

Postby Andrew108 » Sun May 11, 2014 11:50 am

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

DarrinRice
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 9:40 pm

Re: White Ah and Thigle

Postby DarrinRice » Thu May 22, 2014 10:20 pm


muni
Posts: 4249
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: White Ah and Thigle

Postby muni » Fri May 23, 2014 7:18 pm

Hello,

I see here that book "Dzogchen Teachings" by Chogyal Namkhay Norbu Rinpoche here in Sale Edition for 3 pond or 5,5 dollar:

http://www.wisdom-books.com/Author.asp? ... khai+Norbu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

kfpanda
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 11:09 am

Re: White Ah and Thigle

Postby kfpanda » Sun May 25, 2014 11:26 am

Hi Mike B

I am also fairly new to Dzogchen. I have been told that you should visualise the white "A" inside a thigle within your body - in your heart centre, facing outwards. You can use the English "A" rather than the Tibetan "A" if you wish. This is because it is linked to the sound "Ah", which Buddha Sakyamuni described as being the root sound, so it is linked to the root of your nature - the natural mind. If you don't link the Tibetan "A" with that sound readily, then the English "A" would be more effective as it represents the sound "Ah" to those with English as a first language. I currently use the western "A" myself :smile:

ChNN was saying something like this in the retreat yesterday I think.

Regarding whether or not you experienced a connection with rigpa or not during the Direct Introduction.... I would say you probably did, but now you are in doubt of this. Garab Dorje said that the first two stages of Dzogchen are 1) Direct Introduction to state 2) Not remaining in doubt of the state. So now you practice the Guru Yoga and other secondary practices to get to know this state by yourself.

I've also been advised to take part in as many Direct Introductions as possible, to continue to be introduced to rigpa again and again, therefore supplementing your own practice.

Hope this helps. All the best to everyone with their practice. :)

User avatar
Soap-Bubble
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:38 pm

Re: White Ah and Thigle

Postby Soap-Bubble » Fri May 30, 2014 10:36 am

a soap-bubble represents radiant emptiness

User avatar
florin
Posts: 875
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: White Ah and Thigle

Postby florin » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:48 pm

CNNr has said many times that after sounding A one relaxes in that state.
At this moment things can get a little confusing because there are a few questions which might arise .

For example what does one do with the attention which was previously focused on the symbol.Does one shift the attention outside of oneself , does one let go of the attention while in the context of the inside, in the place where the symbol was and continue an inside abiding ?.Then there is the aspect related to the state where "one relaxes in that state".What state are we talking here ? If as a result of relaxation of attention the immediate display remains the same as before the practice, then the state in which one should relax is no different from the state before one started the practice.
Is dzogchen teaching us that i actually need a method to practice something i knew all my life, a state which is ordinary and no different before and after the practice ?

But then some say that that state if is the real state should come together with an understanding, a seeing , a little revelation, poignant enough, of how the real nature of all things is.A seeing without seeing, of that which is nothing but in the same time is everything.

I have asked myself many times what constitutes a "state" or the "state" talked about in the context of GY.
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

Andrew108
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: White Ah and Thigle

Postby Andrew108 » Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:09 pm

IMO state in G Y refers to state of non-fixation.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


Return to “Dzogchen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 2 guests