Understanding of karma

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Understanding of karma

Postby kng » Mon May 26, 2014 3:39 pm

Hi everyone

I am not sure if you will like my post, but I still find the topic itself worth a discussion. I know that I can't request that, but I would like to kindly ask you, that if you wish to discuss the validity of Aro gTer in general, please do that in separate topic. But feel free to discuss validity of teaching contained in this particular video.

Here you can find the link:

Code: Select all
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyDaznDqjhc


For those who would wish to participate in discussion, without having to watch the video, maybe you could suggest some sources from which to study karma or give overview about karma from the point of view of nine vehicles.

Thank you very much

kng
They all are buddhas, they just don't tell me, because they feel ashamed, that I am not.
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Re: Understanding of karma

Postby Malcolm » Mon May 26, 2014 4:12 pm

kng wrote:
For those who would wish to participate in discussion, without having to watch the video, maybe you could suggest some sources from which to study karma or give overview about karma from the point of view of nine vehicles.


The point of view of karma in the conventional is the same for all nine vehicles. In other words, Dzogchen does not deviate in any significant way from the standard presentation of Karma given in chapter 4 of the Abhidharmakośa.

There is no karma in the ultimate, so in that respect too, the point of view of all nine vehicles is the same.

The treatment of karma absolutely does not change from one vehicle to the next.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Understanding of karma

Postby Andrew108 » Mon May 26, 2014 4:21 pm

Malcolm wrote:
kng wrote:
For those who would wish to participate in discussion, without having to watch the video, maybe you could suggest some sources from which to study karma or give overview about karma from the point of view of nine vehicles.


The point of view of karma in the conventional is the same for all nine vehicles. In other words, Dzogchen does not deviate in any significant way from the standard presentation of Karma given in chapter 4 of the Abhidharmakośa.

There is no karma in the ultimate, so in that respect too, the point of view of all nine vehicles is the same.

The treatment of karma absolutely does not change from one vehicle to the next.


Really? Dzogchen accepts a conventional view of karma?
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Understanding of karma

Postby Malcolm » Mon May 26, 2014 4:38 pm

Andrew108 wrote:
Really? Dzogchen accepts a conventional view of karma?


Very much so, as Garland of Pearls Tantra [one of seventeen tantras] states:

One is placed in the dungeon of name and matter
in the castle of the three realms,
tortured with the barbs of ignorance and so on,
oppressed by the thick darkness of samsara,
attached to the salty taste of desire,
bound by the neck with the noose of confusion,
burned with the hot fire of hatred,
head covered with pride,
setting a rendezvous with the mistress of jealousy,
surrounded by the army of enmity...
tied by the neck with the noose of subject and object, [29b]
stuck in the mud of successive traces
and handcuffed with the ripening of karma.
Having been joined with the ripening of karma,
one takes bodies good and bad,
one after another like a water wheel,
born into each individual class.
Having crossed at the ford of self-grasping,
one sinks into the ocean of suffering
and one is caught by the heart on the hook of the three lowers realms.
One is bound by oneself; the afflictions are the enemy.


The whole purpose of practicing rushan, especially outer rushan, is to eliminate the causes of birth in the six lokas.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Understanding of karma

Postby smcj » Mon May 26, 2014 5:08 pm

...feel free to discuss validity of teaching contained in this particular video.

Well he got the whole "habit is a facet of karma" thing ok, which is usually not handled very well. But then he denies that the idea that events in one's life are the results of karma, which is not how I've heard it said by all the traditional teachers and texts I've come across in 30+ years. That's ok if he is presenting it as his opinion, but he is presenting it as the buddhist perspective.

My position is that you can believe or not believe whatever you want, and you are welcome to express your opinion, but please do not distort the teachings to fit your your limited viewpoint. See my signature below.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: Understanding of karma

Postby Andrew108 » Mon May 26, 2014 6:22 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:
Really? Dzogchen accepts a conventional view of karma?


Very much so, as Garland of Pearls Tantra [one of seventeen tantras] states:

One is placed in the dungeon of name and matter
in the castle of the three realms,
tortured with the barbs of ignorance and so on,
oppressed by the thick darkness of samsara,
attached to the salty taste of desire,
bound by the neck with the noose of confusion,
burned with the hot fire of hatred,
head covered with pride,
setting a rendezvous with the mistress of jealousy,
surrounded by the army of enmity...
tied by the neck with the noose of subject and object, [29b]
stuck in the mud of successive traces
and handcuffed with the ripening of karma.
Having been joined with the ripening of karma,
one takes bodies good and bad,
one after another like a water wheel,
born into each individual class.
Having crossed at the ford of self-grasping,
one sinks into the ocean of suffering
and one is caught by the heart on the hook of the three lowers realms.
One is bound by oneself; the afflictions are the enemy.


The whole purpose of practicing rushan, especially outer rushan, is to eliminate the causes of birth in the six lokas.


Yes agreed, but if Dzogchen accepted a conventional view of karma then one would think that one needs to accumulate vast stores of merit and purify oceans of negativities. For example:

"Bodhisattvas do not understand that those objects are their own Presence. Seeing those objects as objects to be purified, they try to purify their own essence."
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Understanding of karma

Postby Malcolm » Mon May 26, 2014 6:31 pm

Andrew108 wrote:Yes agreed, but if Dzogchen accepted a conventional view of karma then one would think that one needs to accumulate vast stores of merit and purify oceans of negativities.



Khenpo Ngachung, someone who attained the pinnacle of Dzogchen realization in the last century, and then wrote of his experiences states:

In any system of sutra or tantra, without gathering the accumulations and purifying obscurations, Buddhahood can never be attained. Though the system of gathering accumulations and purifying obscurations is different, in this respect [dzogchen] is the same.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Understanding of karma

Postby asunthatneversets » Mon May 26, 2014 6:46 pm

Someone shared this from Tulku Pema Rigtsal some time ago, good insight for this thread:

"Until our pure presence is a constant, until we attain fearless confidence, we must attend to karmic causality, vows and samayas, accumulation of merit, abstention from vice, and so forth. As Padmasambhava famously said, quoted in The Chronicles of Padmasambhava, which were revealed by Orgyen Lingpa, My view is higher than the sky; My karma is finer than barley flour. Pay attention to karmically effected events with the same care we reserve for protection of the eyes. But at the same time, such events should not be seen as real and true. Quoted in The Samye Chronicles, Padmasambhava again says, 'Maharaj! In my tantra it is the view that leads; but don’t let your conduct bend toward the view. If you do let it stray, you take the black demonic sophistic view that may justify any wicked action by emptiness. But on the other hand, don’t let the view tend toward conduct because if you do, trapped by notions of concrete materialism and specific attributes, the occasion for liberation will never arise.' Due to his misconception of karmic cause and effect, Tarpa Nakpo was born in hell and then reborn as Rudra. For further details of this story, browse through the tantra The Discourse of the General Assembly. Tarpa Nakpo’s fate was determined by his contempt for karmic repercussion in his confusion about the causal process. As Jowoje Atisha said in The Lamp of the Path, until concepts are exhausted, there is karma; believe in the repercussions of karma."

And this from Longchenpa:

"Some say: 'Cause and effect [karma], compassion and merits are the dharma for ordinary people, and it will not lead to enlightenment. O great yogis! You should meditate upon the ultimate meaning, effortless as space.'

These kinds of statements are the views of the utmost nihilism, they have entered the path of the most inferior. It is astonishing to expect the result while abandoning the cause."
- rdzogs pa chen po sems nyid ngal gso
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Re: Understanding of karma

Postby smcj » Mon May 26, 2014 11:26 pm

...feel free to discuss validity of teaching contained in this particular video.

p.s. This video is a perfect example of why I don't trust white guys with the title "lama" to get it right.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: Understanding of karma

Postby kng » Thu May 29, 2014 4:52 pm

I would like to share with you an interesting video of Igor Berkhin(student of Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, SMS teacher)

Code: Select all
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZkUUwbzuHM


You can find the relevant sequence when you go to 34:39, here I offer self-made transcript:

"For example in dzogchen teaching, which is somehow different from other buddhist teachings, we do not
say that, for example for meeting the teaching of Buddha we need to have some good causes, some merits
etc., we need to do something good during many lifetimes and then as a result we meet this high
teaching, that can help us to free ourselves, to become liberated. In dzogchen teachings we say, we are lucky.
We have good luck of meeting this teaching. And this is just good luck. This is something that
just happened. We are meeting this teaching, it does not mean, that we are immediately interested
in that teaching, but this interest can evolve gradualy. With the time passing it can evolve this
interest. But very fact of meeting the teaching is not a result of some cause. In dzogchen teaching
we call it good luck."

and it can be usefull to read the description of video from Igor where he says that:

"Note. When I'm talking about causes for knowledge and good luck it doesn't mean that we encounter the teaching without a cause (that would be a view called murtugpa in Tibetan). "Good luck" refers to our fortune to have connection with somebody who has knowledge. And this connection becomes a cause for meeting the teaching. And there are different ways how such connection can be created. If I'm an insect and somebody just by chance steps on me and kills me, ordinarily we would say that it is a result of my bad karma. But if the one who steps on me is on a sprirtual path and this is the first time I meet something like that then I can say that I was very lucky to be killed this way.:-))))"
They all are buddhas, they just don't tell me, because they feel ashamed, that I am not.
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Re: Understanding of karma

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 29, 2014 5:02 pm

kng wrote:
"For example in dzogchen teaching, which is somehow different from other buddhist teachings, we do not
say that, for example for meeting the teaching of Buddha we need to have some good causes, some merits
etc., we need to do something good during many lifetimes and then as a result we meet this high
teaching, that can help us to free ourselves, to become liberated.


Berkhin has a little misunderstanding here. We say that people who meet Dzogchen (and Dharma in general) are fortunate, why are they fortunate? Because they have the merit to meet the teachings. Why do they have that merit, because of positive actions performed over countless lifetimes.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Understanding of karma

Postby dude » Fri May 30, 2014 5:51 am

smcj wrote:
...feel free to discuss validity of teaching contained in this particular video.

Well he got the whole "habit is a facet of karma" thing ok, which is usually not handled very well. But then he denies that the idea that events in one's life are the results of karma, which is not how I've heard it said by all the traditional teachers and texts I've come across in 30+ years. That's ok if he is presenting it as his opinion, but he is presenting it as the buddhist perspective.

My position is that you can believe or not believe whatever you want, and you are welcome to express your opinion, but please do not distort the teachings to fit your your limited viewpoint. See my signature below.



, but please do not distort the teachings to fit your your limited viewpoint. See my signature below


That's exactly where I'm coming from.
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