Awareness of awareness

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monktastic
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by monktastic »

Consider some particular experience: say, the experience of a sound (perhaps a bell).

What is this experience like before awareness "picks it up" or "awares" it?

Is it just a really, really, quiet experience of a bell? :spy:

No, I think it's not fair to call that hypothetical thing "an experience" at all. :quoteunquote:

Doesn't this suggest that what we're calling "awareness" is a fundamental constituent of this "experience of a bell?" A sine qua non? (And moreover, if awareness is truly a fundamental constituent of experience, why does some other awareness have to come in from elsewhere and take the experience as an object? That would be some wasted effort, I think.)

So if we can't truly separate out awareness from the supposed objects of awareness, why does it seem like we can?

To answer that, some experience helps, I think. Then, perhaps what it even means to be "aware of awareness" may make a little more sense.

PS, if you missed dzogchungpa's link: http://www.sandoth.com/Dogzen.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" :tongue:
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa
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LastLegend
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Re: Awareness of awareness

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Bodhisattva does not see object as actual object; they see empty nature of object. That's why they are not attached to object yet at the same time they see object. When wavered form gives rise to mind, and mind gives rise to form. Wavered is wavered by the false view of form as actual object, false view of mind as actual object by using mind to grasp mind as if there is something there to be obtained...yup I do it all the time. :lol:
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Rick
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Rick »

Sounds interesting. I love "remixing" ancient traditions. I do it all the time ... in dharma and music.

So how do I learn the DZ technique? I'd like to give 'er a spin, see what's what ...
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Rick
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Re: Awareness of awareness

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LastLegend wrote:Bodhisattva does not see object as actual object; they see empty nature of object.
This is what I've been calling a subtle object. As long as there is anything to see, anything ... there's an object there. Even if the object is ... emptiness of objects.

That's why seeing awareness sounds impossible to me. Awareness is not an object, it is pure receptivity. Seeing cannot set its sights on a non-object.

It's like what Anam Thubten says: You can never find the ground of being. But it is who you really are.
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Re: Awareness of awareness

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It's possible that you are the object yourself. When you hears sound, is the sound different from you? If you are different from the sound, then the sound is the object of awareness. If you are not different from the sound, what is there to be aware of? Not awareness of awareness because there is still division and separation if you are still aware of your awareness.
If you are the object yourself, there is nothing else to be aware of besides being aware of yourself, but you are not even aware of yourself because there is no need to in relation to other object. There is no other object because you are the object... at this, it's hard to fathom.
Last edited by LastLegend on Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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odysseus
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by odysseus »

rachmiel wrote:
That's why seeing awareness sounds impossible to me.
Seeing awareness with eyes is impossible (don´t think you mean that). But the mind can "see" many things at once, also the state of awareness itself. So you can say there can be two awarenesses, lol. But the awareness of awareness will become subtler until there is only natural awareness without effort.
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Re: Awareness of awareness

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LastLegend wrote:It's possible that you are the object yourself.
In the observer=observed way, ja. I learned this from Krishnamurti.
Not awareness of awareness because there is still division and separation if you are still aware of your awareness.
And that's my point: awareness of awareness just doesn't make sense, because awareness is not dualistic. If you have two awarenesses operating at the same time, one is not pure awareness; it's more of an instrument of thought/memory.
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Re: Awareness of awareness

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It's like using mind to search mind when isn't anything substantial there to search for.
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by Rick »

Ja.

That's why, when I did some research on Dzogchen and found that its essential practice is to be aware of awareness ... I got confused.

Though I am a great friend of paradoxes and apparent impossibilities. :woohoo:
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Re: Awareness of awareness

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Reality—the “reality” that is evoked on every page of Longchenpa’s text—is the light of the mind that shines equally and inescapably in every moment of existence. Much of the difficulty of Dzogchen translation into English arises from the multiplicity of expression, the fine nuance of terminology, employed to evoke this fundamental luminosity. It is the single most important, unique assumption of Dzogchen that this light is self-existent and self-aware and in fact the sole ingredient of all our experience. This light is the great mystery of nondual mysticism. When we comprehend that Dzogchen is based upon the assumption that all and everything, consciousness and every form of experience, is naturally composed of this light, then we are able to read without let or hindrance the technical exposition of its revelation that allows the light to shine out in all its brilliance. The innate awareness of this pristine nondual brilliance is called rigpa.
Rachmiel, if the objects themselves are made out of the light of awareness, then awareness can illuminate itself in a way similar to how a candle illuminates itself.

There's no paradox here.
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa
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Rick
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Re: Awareness of awareness

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monktastic wrote:Rachmiel, if the objects themselves are made out of the light of awareness, then awareness can illuminate itself in a way similar to how a candle illuminates itself.
Hmm ... Aisi, the light creator of the candle, the flame, doesn't illuminate itself. It IS light, it does not receive light.

Perhaps we're into semantics? I wouldn't be surprised, since this stuff is beyond words. What say you?
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monktastic
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Re: Awareness of awareness

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Yes, that's true. Saying that a candle illuminates itself is only a manner of speaking. If I said it to someone without vision, they may argue that light can only illuminate something else. But to someone with vision, the meaning is clear, even if logically imprecise. In truth, light never illuminates something "else." Light only ever "illuminates itself."

Perhaps it is the same with awareness.
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by dzogchungpa »

There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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monktastic
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Re: Awareness of awareness

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Yeah, Alan Wallace is great. He also goes to great pains to explain that his "awareness of awareness" practice is not (necessarily) rigpa (which he often terms "pristine awareness").
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Awareness of awareness

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monktastic wrote:Yeah, Alan Wallace is great. He also goes to great pains to explain that his "awareness of awareness" practice is not (necessarily) rigpa (which he often terms "pristine awareness").

I've read a little about this and I don't get it. How are you supposed to know the difference between truly resting in rigpa, or resting in the alaya...do you just "know" somehow?
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Awareness of awareness

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dzogchungpa wrote:Possibly of interest: http://podcasts.sbinstitute.com/fall201 ... areness-1/
have to check that out. also for textual there's Pointing out mind nature in the tradition of old sages
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by dzogchungpa »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
monktastic wrote:Yeah, Alan Wallace is great. He also goes to great pains to explain that his "awareness of awareness" practice is not (necessarily) rigpa (which he often terms "pristine awareness").
I've read a little about this and I don't get it. How are you supposed to know the difference between truly resting in rigpa, or resting in the alaya...do you just "know" somehow?
I think the notion of "timelessness" might be relevant.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Awareness of awareness

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dzogchungpa wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
monktastic wrote:Yeah, Alan Wallace is great. He also goes to great pains to explain that his "awareness of awareness" practice is not (necessarily) rigpa (which he often terms "pristine awareness").
I've read a little about this and I don't get it. How are you supposed to know the difference between truly resting in rigpa, or resting in the alaya...do you just "know" somehow?
I think the notion of "timelessness" might be relevant.

How do you experience that though, by looking into abiding, ceasing, arising..and lack thereof..or so you just non conceptually "experience" something as timeless somehow?
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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lorem
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by lorem »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
monktastic wrote:Yeah, Alan Wallace is great. He also goes to great pains to explain that his "awareness of awareness" practice is not (necessarily) rigpa (which he often terms "pristine awareness").

I've read a little about this and I don't get it. How are you supposed to know the difference between truly resting in rigpa, or resting in the alaya...do you just "know" somehow?
EDIT

That's where the teacher comes in. Because now has me questioning some of my experiences. kun gzhi or gzhi? nyon-yid rnam-shes? lungmaten?
Last edited by lorem on Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Awareness of awareness

Post by dzogchungpa »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:I think the notion of "timelessness" might be relevant.
How do you experience that though, by looking into abiding, ceasing, arising..and lack thereof..or so you just non conceptually "experience" something as timeless somehow?
Well, I'm just a beginner, but it wouldn't involve "looking".
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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