Rainbow Body - Why?

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby heart » Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:39 pm

Dhondrub wrote:I just realized what I missed in this one sane and boring year without e-sangha! :tongue:
you can never have these kind of arguments with Dharmafriends in the real world, everybody would just feel totally ridiculous.


:smile:

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3196
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:00 am

Aemilius wrote:
heart wrote:I am not talking about my own practice here. I am talking about how the development stage is practiced in the Nyingma.

/magnus


So, are you saying that all of the Nyingma are practicing the three samadhis ? Do you not count yourself as belonging to the Nyingma ? Are you not also saying that those who recite the texts without the attainment of the three samadhis are not Nyingma ? Possibly there is then something before the development stage in the Nyingma, what is it called ? Or in the Pre-Nyingma?


The three samadhis are part of the instructions for practicing any Nyingma inner tantric sadhana. Actually, the three samadhis are probably the most fundamental instruction in Nyingma inner tantra. Anyone who is not practicing their Nyingma inner tantric sadhana in this way is either very new to the practice and kind of jumping into it before he/she has been completely instructed, or has not paid attention to the teachings he/she's received. Simple as that. It doesn't necessarily have a thing to do with attainment. One will start out with a more or less contrived, conceptual approach to it but will eventually approach it from knowledge of rigpa (if one thoroughly understands how to properly practice, practices regularly and thoroughly, and one keeps one's samayas, etc).
Pema Rigdzin
 
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:19 am
Location: Southern Oregon

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Aemilius » Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:48 am

heart wrote:
Aemilius wrote:
heart wrote:I am not talking about my own practice here. I am talking about how the development stage is practiced in the Nyingma.

/magnus


So, are you saying that all of the Nyingma are practicing the three samadhis ? Do you not count yourself as belonging to the Nyingma ? Are you not also saying that those who recite the texts without the attainment of the three samadhis are not Nyingma ? Possibly there is then something before the development stage in the Nyingma, what is it called ? Or in the Pre-Nyingma?


I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't discussing my personal practice and my own experiences in meditation but that my discussion is based on what I generally been taught by many teachers and read in many books. I personally count myself as Chökyi Nyima Rinpoches student not as member of any particular lineage. But yes, I do practice the three samadhis. If you have "attainment of the three samadhis" you are a very excellent practitioner indeed. I never said that someone that don't "attainment of the three samadhis are not a Nyingma", I don't know where you got that from? I said that the three samadhis is the framework for the development stage in all sadhanas in the Nyingma. I would like to add on second thought that this is just true for the inner tantras.

/magnus


Thank you, Your Honour, no further questions.
svaha
User avatar
Aemilius
 
Posts: 1688
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby heart » Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:56 pm

Aemilius wrote:Thank you, Your Honour, no further questions.


Your are most welcome your majesty. :tongue:

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3196
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Malcolm » Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:30 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Even Namdrol who is very well learned to a certain degree did not have insight into Dzogchen, so he opened that Dzogchen forum to get informed.




For the record, that is not why I opened the Dzogchen forum on E-Sangha.

I opened the Dzogchen forum on E-Sangha because there are practitioners of Dzogchen in Sakya, Kagyu, Gelug, Nyingma and Bon who, at the time seemed to need a place to discuss things separate from the Nyingma forum

The Dzogchen forum was closed because the discussion was becoming completely dominated by people from Dzogchen Community.

The Bon forum was closed primarily because one: the narrative histories of Bon and Buddhism in Tibet are largely incompatible with each other, despite many doctrinal similarities, and two: E-Sangha was a Pan-Buddhist Web site.



N
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


One who explains any Dharma
without possessing trustworthy scriptures,
has a conceptual nature,
spoiling himself and spoiling others.

-- Ghanavyūha Sūtra
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 14137
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Mr. G » Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:35 am

Thanks for dropping by Namdrol! You're always welcome here, don't be a stranger.

And update your Sakya blog more often! There's a lack of information out there for us Sakyapas!
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
User avatar
Mr. G
 
Posts: 4027
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:36 am
Location: Spaceship Earth

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby heart » Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:58 am

Namdrol wrote:N


Nice to see you again big N!

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3196
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Pero » Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:07 pm

heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:N


Nice to see you again big N!


Yes. :hi:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
 
Posts: 1864
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:51 pm

Pero wrote:
heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:N


Nice to see you again big N!


Yes. :hi:


Yeah, very good to see you, Namdrol. Looking forward to your participation here.
Pema Rigdzin
 
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:19 am
Location: Southern Oregon

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:44 pm

Here's hoping that Namdrol will post more here! :cheers:
Ngawang Drolma
Founding Member
 
Posts: 2230
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:44 pm

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Ashocka » Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:04 pm

Aemilius wrote:Urgyen Tulku says in his book Repeating the Words of Buddha that when somebody attains the rainbow body then simultaneously 2000 people attain enlightenment.

I have heard something similar by one highly respected lama. He said there was a special liberating effect caused by attaining rainbow body that had a profound liberating effect on other sentient beings. I also got the feeling he was saying this not just as some casual information, but as an inspiration to aspire to that path of practice, as it is also highly suitable for those who have the capacity to achieve high realization but do not have much karmic connection for outer bodhisattva activity in this lifetime.

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Astus wrote:Maybe I've missed something here in Narraboth's answer but I still don't see the use of dissolving the physical body into rainbow lights besides its obvious miraculous nature that can inspire faith. Also, if we go into the land of wonders, bodhisattvas are capable of all kinds of magic transforming themselves into virtually anything, including buddhas. And that ability is available to a large number of gods, demons and yogis too. So, again, what is so special about the rainbow body that it can be an argument for the superiority of dzogchen?


Honestly there's much more to the significance of rainbow body that is only going to be explained in the context of teachings on togal which explain how wisdom and the 5 elements have yet to be totally liberated in clear light before the fruition of that level of practice (the 4th of the "four visions"). Dzogchen mengagde teaches that even the fruition of trekchod is not quite complete and does not result in the maximum ability to benefit beings (although one's own benefit is completely achieved and a very immense benefit to others is as well, obviously). For people like us, though, I think Narraboth's example of being like ants trying to estimate which skyscraper above us is taller is quite appropriate, even if it is interesting to talk about.


:bow: I think there is something quite significant to the ja lü that Pema Rigdzin points to here, that needs more elucidation to understand its profoundity.
Ashocka
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:10 am

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Saoshun » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:49 pm

Rainbow body is not enlightenment but definitely high level of achievement in form of skandha.
Saoshun
 
Posts: 232
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:16 pm

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:52 pm

Saoshun wrote:Rainbow body is not enlightenment but definitely high level of achievement in form of skandha.


Umm, no. Rainbow body is the attainment of buddhahood.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


One who explains any Dharma
without possessing trustworthy scriptures,
has a conceptual nature,
spoiling himself and spoiling others.

-- Ghanavyūha Sūtra
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 14137
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Saoshun » Mon Apr 20, 2015 2:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Saoshun wrote:Rainbow body is not enlightenment but definitely high level of achievement in form of skandha.


Umm, no. Rainbow body is the attainment of buddhahood.


If we look in the sense of skandhas it's skandha of form which was transformed into light so it cannot be counted as enlightenment as it's pretty logic. When you exhaust skandha of form you can dissolve and consciously be reborn which is great for bodhisattva path

These so-called 'transmutations of vijnana' are only changes of appellation and not a change of substance. - This argument of Hui neng is hard to beat.

But I trust your knowledge Malcom and hope you can explain why this should be considered as Buddhahood.
Saoshun
 
Posts: 232
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:16 pm

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:53 pm

Saoshun wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Saoshun wrote:Rainbow body is not enlightenment but definitely high level of achievement in form of skandha.


Umm, no. Rainbow body is the attainment of buddhahood.


If we look in the sense of skandhas it's skandha of form which was transformed into light so it cannot be counted as enlightenment as it's pretty logic. When you exhaust skandha of form you can dissolve and consciously be reborn which is great for bodhisattva path

These so-called 'transmutations of vijnana' are only changes of appellation and not a change of substance. - This argument of Hui neng is hard to beat.

But I trust your knowledge Malcom and hope you can explain why this should be considered as Buddhahood.


"Rainbow body" is a name for what happens when the elements of body reverts back to their original nature as pristine consciousness as a result of the process of Dzogchen practice or completion stage practice. A key point of Vajrayāna is that there is no buddhahood that is not grounded in the body. Hence, the attainment of rainbow body, or the body of light, is regarded as proof that a practitioner has attained buddhahood. This is never mentioned in sūtra because sūtra has no methods of practice that involve the body as a vehicle for awakening.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


One who explains any Dharma
without possessing trustworthy scriptures,
has a conceptual nature,
spoiling himself and spoiling others.

-- Ghanavyūha Sūtra
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 14137
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Tenso » Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:21 pm


"Rainbow body" is a name for what happens when the elements of body reverts back to their original nature as pristine consciousness as a result of the process of Dzogchen practice or completion stage practice. A key point of Vajrayāna is that there is no buddhahood that is not grounded in the body. Hence, the attainment of rainbow body, or the body of light, is regarded as proof that a practitioner has attained buddhahood. This is never mentioned in sūtra because sūtra has no methods of practice that involve the body as a vehicle for awakening.

What is the difference between mahayana sambhogakaya and rainbow body?
Tenso
 
Posts: 912
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:04 am

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby smcj » Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:29 pm

Tenso wrote:

"Rainbow body" is a name for what happens when the elements of body reverts back to their original nature as pristine consciousness as a result of the process of Dzogchen practice or completion stage practice. A key point of Vajrayāna is that there is no buddhahood that is not grounded in the body. Hence, the attainment of rainbow body, or the body of light, is regarded as proof that a practitioner has attained buddhahood. This is never mentioned in sūtra because sūtra has no methods of practice that involve the body as a vehicle for awakening.

What is the difference between mahayana sambhogakaya and rainbow body?

Allow me to expose my ignorance.
"Sambogakaya" is a Vajrayana term. It is pure appearance of enlightenment on the level of mind, never physical.
"Rainbow body" is as explained above, where the physical body changes at death. The change being an indication that for the deceased practitioner the physical was also realized to be just an appearance (I think).

But people that know better than me are welcome to correct that.
"Those who study a teaching and become attached to it will become angry when they hear something that is not their teaching. Their pride and conceit will defeat them and lead them to suffering."
HHKarmapa IX
smcj
 
Posts: 2756
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Saoshun » Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:
"Rainbow body" is a name for what happens when the elements of body reverts back to their original nature as pristine consciousness as a result of the process of Dzogchen practice or completion stage practice. A key point of Vajrayāna is that there is no buddhahood that is not grounded in the body. Hence, the attainment of rainbow body, or the body of light, is regarded as proof that a practitioner has attained buddhahood. This is never mentioned in sūtra because sūtra has no methods of practice that involve the body as a vehicle for awakening.



Okay I agree, but the same things happen in samadhi but samadhi is stepping stone so I guess there must be master or guru who can relate to this point well.
Saoshun
 
Posts: 232
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:16 pm

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:07 pm

Tenso wrote:What is the difference between mahayana sambhogakaya and rainbow body?


The Mahāyāna Sambhogakāya is visible only to 8th stage bodhisattvas on up. While lesser rainbow body is only observable through the sign of the shrinking of the body after death, the so called great transformation body, rainbow body attained while still alive, is visible to everyone. Only a small handful of practitioners have achieved this result. Most practitioners of Vajrayāna, regardless of tradition, attain Buddhahood during the bardo.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


One who explains any Dharma
without possessing trustworthy scriptures,
has a conceptual nature,
spoiling himself and spoiling others.

-- Ghanavyūha Sūtra
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 14137
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:08 pm

Saoshun wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
"Rainbow body" is a name for what happens when the elements of body reverts back to their original nature as pristine consciousness as a result of the process of Dzogchen practice or completion stage practice. A key point of Vajrayāna is that there is no buddhahood that is not grounded in the body. Hence, the attainment of rainbow body, or the body of light, is regarded as proof that a practitioner has attained buddhahood. This is never mentioned in sūtra because sūtra has no methods of practice that involve the body as a vehicle for awakening.



Okay I agree, but the same things happen in samadhi but samadhi is stepping stone so I guess there must be master or guru who can relate to this point well.


Rainbow body is a result cultivating a very specific set of practices all of which involve skill in samadhi.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


One who explains any Dharma
without possessing trustworthy scriptures,
has a conceptual nature,
spoiling himself and spoiling others.

-- Ghanavyūha Sūtra
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 14137
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

PreviousNext

Return to Dzogchen

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: heart, Muchaccho, udawa and 14 guests

>