Wandering in Samsara
Re: Wandering in Samsara
I disagree. My views are
Before the curtain of Karma/consciousness nothing except NATURE/EMPTINESS.
NATURE created space/time/consciousness/karma/duality in sequence
Duality creates WISDOM.
ADVANCED WISDOM created Buddhas, Buddha essence.
After creation of Buddhas .....Now the process of clearing the existence of Dukkha/sufferings/death/oldage
This is a picture of systematic effects of COSMIC EVOLUTION
Before the curtain of Karma/consciousness nothing except NATURE/EMPTINESS.
NATURE created space/time/consciousness/karma/duality in sequence
Duality creates WISDOM.
ADVANCED WISDOM created Buddhas, Buddha essence.
After creation of Buddhas .....Now the process of clearing the existence of Dukkha/sufferings/death/oldage
This is a picture of systematic effects of COSMIC EVOLUTION
"All my writing are my personal opinion unless otherwise specifically mentioned."
Re: Wandering in Samsara
[/quote][quote="kalden yungdr
Here my personal view about consciousness and not seeing the Natural State / Bodhicitta etc.
Before the curtain of karma
Is the person with consciousness, karma etc.
Because of dualisms / karma etc.
The person cannot see what is on the other side of the curtain
By the help of methods etc. one can lift the curtain peut a peut.
If the curtain is total lifted the karma person is gone
What is on the other side of the curtain was always there does not the matter how we call it
Finally it has NO NAME etc.
Mutsug Marro
KY
Consciousness can disappear temporarily and even permanently.
With the appearance of Wisdom , consciouness survived to reach NATURE after creating a ladder of DHARAMKAYA, NIRMAN KAYA and SAMBHOGKAYA.
This lead to formation of BUDDHAS and Buddha essence and NIRVAN.
"All my writing are my personal opinion unless otherwise specifically mentioned."
- kalden yungdrung
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Re: Wandering in Samsara
godhead wrote:I disagree. My views are
Before the curtain of Karma/consciousness nothing except NATURE/EMPTINESS.
NATURE created space/time/consciousness/karma/duality in sequence
Duality creates WISDOM.
ADVANCED WISDOM created Buddhas, Buddha essence.
After creation of Buddhas .....Now the process of clearing the existence of Dukkha/sufferings/death/oldage
This is a picture of systematic effects of COSMIC EVOLUTION
Tashi delek G,
I guess you misinterpret my opinions.
Sure you can have your own opinions too, no problem.
But here i go hand in hand with the Dzogchen teachings and you follow yours , which is no Dzogchen .
So let's go out from the original teachings and not from your private opinions which go really wrong (according the authentic teachings).
You know , we never can add to Dzogchen something or change here and there something, or take something out we can add to our own opinions, because the Dzogchen teachings really are complete and cannot be changed according our own wishes and opinions.
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According Dzogchen:
Nothing is so created because we have so no God who does the creation.
All is self-emanating out of Emptiness and it has no cause.
All is self-liberated and that is Great Perfection.
So everything comes out of that Emptiness, stays for a while and dissolves back to Emptiness.
So it is in Dzogchen a big mistake to think or be convinced about that Nature does create space.
Space = emptiness = never created = self emanating = causeless.
Wisdom is self-emanating and is NEVER created. This because it comes from alone (causeless) in Dzogchen Meditation which is no meditation in fact because we don't deal here with subject / object.
So again i do respect your point of view but i must say it is really not the Dzogchen Vision.
-------
By the way what religion / philosophy do you adhere ?
Are you from India maybe?
Mutsug Marro
KY
The best meditation is no meditation
Re: Wandering in Samsara
This must be hinduism, I suppose.godhead wrote:I disagree. My views are
Before the curtain of Karma/consciousness nothing except NATURE/EMPTINESS.
NATURE created space/time/consciousness/karma/duality in sequence
Duality creates WISDOM.
ADVANCED WISDOM created Buddhas, Buddha essence.
After creation of Buddhas .....Now the process of clearing the existence of Dukkha/sufferings/death/oldage
This is a picture of systematic effects of COSMIC EVOLUTION
But it is still the same problem: it is not possible to teach buddhists about buddhism without knowing anything about buddhism.
- kalden yungdrung
- Posts: 4606
- Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm
Re: Wandering in Samsara
Ayu wrote:This must be hinduism, I suppose.godhead wrote:I disagree. My views are
Before the curtain of Karma/consciousness nothing except NATURE/EMPTINESS.
NATURE created space/time/consciousness/karma/duality in sequence
Duality creates WISDOM.
ADVANCED WISDOM created Buddhas, Buddha essence.
After creation of Buddhas .....Now the process of clearing the existence of Dukkha/sufferings/death/oldage
This is a picture of systematic effects of COSMIC EVOLUTION
But it is still the same problem: it is not possible to teach buddhists about buddhism without knowing anything about buddhism.
Tashi delek A,
As Buddhists we can learn all day long about other one's visions / opinions / convictions.
We, as Buddhists yes we have to study them (religions / philosophies) all. Even our own philosophy we have to study to the point / bottom.
It comes out of the "mind" all those visions and Buddhism does deal only with Mind so we can understand therefore better and defend our position better, by studying other one's points of views / opinions / convictions etc.
Yes i am convinced that Buddhism is a rich container with everything inside (84.000 ways / methods), where Dzogchen can be seen as the crown or fruit.
Mutsug Marro
KY
The best meditation is no meditation
Re: Wandering in Samsara
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Tashi delek A,
As Buddhists we can learn all day long about other one's visions / opinions / convictions.
We, as Buddhists yes we have to study them (religions / philosophies) all. Even our own philosophy we have to study to the point / bottom.
It comes out of the "mind" all those visions and Buddhism does deal only with Mind so we can understand therefore better and defend our position better, by studying other one's points of views / opinions / convictions etc.
Yes i am convinced that Buddhism is a rich container with everything inside (84.000 ways / methods), where Dzogchen can be seen as the crown or fruit.
Mutsug Marro
KY
We had a nice conversation. I feel very happy about this . Thanks.
By the way refer me to simple, direct and best teachings of dzogchen teachings, so that I learn and meditate and understand.
"All my writing are my personal opinion unless otherwise specifically mentioned."
Re: Wandering in Samsara
Fine, that you enjoy the conversation.
Re: Wandering in Samsara
Are these teaching Buddhism or this is separate teaching from Buddhism.kalden yungdrung wrote:
----------
According Dzogchen:
Nothing is so created because we have so no God who does the creation.
All is self-emanating out of Emptiness and it has no cause.
All is self-liberated and that is Great Perfection.
So everything comes out of that Emptiness, stays for a while and dissolves back to Emptiness.
I say so that I can directly produce the words of Guatam Buddha from a sutra that somewhat challange the last sentence.
According to this sutra Buddhas will never never enter Emptiness but will enter NIrvan and a Buddha will always be present for ever and ever.
"All my writing are my personal opinion unless otherwise specifically mentioned."
- kalden yungdrung
- Posts: 4606
- Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm
Re: Wandering in Samsara
Godhead wrote: We had a nice conversation. I feel very happy about this . Thanks.
By the way refer me to simple, direct and best teachings of dzogchen teachings, so that I learn and meditate and understand.
Tashi delek G,
You are of course here on DW, welcome to get more informed about Dzogchen.
You could easy get your info's here or questions answered.
We have here on board Dzogchen teachings from:
- Bon
- Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
- Nyingma
So you can look around here and there for professional assistance regarding your questions regarding Dzogchen.
If you are well informed and you can understand what is the Natural State than it would be the highest time to look for a Rigdzin or Dzogchen Master and also here visit many Teachers and Masters.
Can assure you that in all those above mentioned Dzogchen Lineages, Dzogchen = Dzogchen there is no difference.
Mutsug Marro
KY
The best meditation is no meditation
Re: Wandering in Samsara
I am very anxious to know as to dzogchen is a part of BUddhism or not?
If yes then how does it contradict direct words of Guatam Buddha?
Of course I shall bring out all the necessary Guatam Buddhas sutras and their authencity and support.
If yes then how does it contradict direct words of Guatam Buddha?
Of course I shall bring out all the necessary Guatam Buddhas sutras and their authencity and support.
"All my writing are my personal opinion unless otherwise specifically mentioned."
- kalden yungdrung
- Posts: 4606
- Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm
Re: Wandering in Samsara
godhead wrote:I am very anxious to know as to dzogchen is a part of BUddhism or not?
If yes then how does it contradict direct words of Guatam Buddha?
Of course I shall bring out all the necessary Guatam Buddhas sutras and their authencity and support.
Tashi delek G,
Thanks for your replies.
Yes here you hit a very special point.
Well the Dzogchen Buddha is not Gautama Buddha that is very sure.
The Dzogchen Buddha is Kuntu Zangpo or Samantabhadra and represent Dharmakaya aspect.
You are right Gautama Buddha did teach in a so called language Pali etc. in those days.
His message was Dukha and the solution / eradication of Dukha.
And for that you have to avoid to do something. So sila is here very important as well the 12 links of interdependency etc..
Further are Dzogchen teachings written in Sanskrit when i am right and not in Pali......
But again there are Buddhists who make a claim that the Jina did teach in some guise or way Dzogchen etc.
Well for me that is not important if i take my Dzogchen texts at hand, if the Jina would have teached Dzogchen or not.
I like his Sutra teachings anyway............
Mutsug Marro
KY
The best meditation is no meditation
Re: Wandering in Samsara
Now I understand that why many on this site do not like my ideas.
Thanks again for your openness.
Thanks again for your openness.
"All my writing are my personal opinion unless otherwise specifically mentioned."
Re: Wandering in Samsara
http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... e_teacherskalden yungdrung wrote: Well the Dzogchen Buddha is not Gautama Buddha that is very sure.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
- kalden yungdrung
- Posts: 4606
- Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm
Re: Wandering in Samsara
-------------------heart wrote:http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... e_teacherskalden yungdrung wrote: Well the Dzogchen Buddha is not Gautama Buddha that is very sure.
/magnus
Tashi delek M,
Sure i know the claim , no problem for me that there are some who adhere to that position, but i have also the freedom NOT to adhere to that position, isn't it?
Also i do respect other one's opinions also if they are not mine, as long as they don't kill me.
But for the sake of the Dzogchen teachings don't let's spoil it with if the Jina did or did not teach Dzogchen, because that is irrelevant regarding the meaning and practice of Dzogchen.
So please let's stop such "non-sense", indeed it does not make sense to the meaning and practice of Dzogchen.
Let's focus on the fruit of Dzogchen...................................
Mutsug Marro
KY
The best meditation is no meditation
Re: Wandering in Samsara
Without Shakyamuni, no Garab Dorje and no Dzogchen. But everyone is free to believe whatever they want.
/magnus
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Wandering in Samsara
Yes, Dzogchen is part of Buddhadharma.godhead wrote:I am very anxious to know as to dzogchen is a part of BUddhism or not?
It doesn't, not at all.If yes then how does it contradict direct words of Guatam Buddha?
Re: Wandering in Samsara
It is ok for me, I do not want to create unnecessary ripplesMalcolm wrote:Yes, Dzogchen is part of Buddhadharma.godhead wrote:I am very anxious to know as to dzogchen is a part of BUddhism or not?
It doesn't, not at all.If yes then how does it contradict direct words of Guatam Buddha?
"All my writing are my personal opinion unless otherwise specifically mentioned."
Re: Wandering in Samsara
godhead wrote:It is ok for me, I do not want to create unnecessary ripplesMalcolm wrote:Yes, Dzogchen is part of Buddhadharma.godhead wrote:I am very anxious to know as to dzogchen is a part of BUddhism or not?
It doesn't, not at all.If yes then how does it contradict direct words of Guatam Buddha?
Excellent answers all -
My 2 cents.
No ripples here!
Perhaps all ripples are "necessary" until resolved by integration into practice = direct experience.
Perhaps in the vast expanse of Dzogchen, which has no limits, or qualifications, or way of even being defined by words (like writing on water or air) there is no way to say Dzogchen is this or that. This concept, which is beyond concept, has no way to be referenced by concepts: yet, perhaps, it can be experienced.
So if you want to experience Dzogchen, then you can seek out Direct Introduction from a Dzogchen Master, take the Dzogchen teachings, do the Dzogchen practices and directly see what you experience.
This is the tradition that Dzogchen comes from.
Then the ripples (left in their own condition - just "as it is,") cause no trouble for you or anyone. Then you rest in your undefined luminous awareness, not conditioned by what arises or doesn't arise, in your experience, 24/7.
Until then you can (recognizing impermanence, karma, old age sickness and death, and the uncertainty of human rebirth) try to practice a little.
Understanding is like a patch which falls off when circumstances change (Patrul R.) = all understandings are just more ripples, and don't cook the rice.
Only practice cooks the rice.
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8917
Enjoy the feast! Choose carefully, eat slowly - chew well.
- kalden yungdrung
- Posts: 4606
- Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm
Re: Wandering in Samsara
quote="oldbob"]
Excellent answers all -
My 2 cents.
No ripples here!
Perhaps all ripples are "necessary" until resolved by integration into practice = direct experience.
Perhaps in the vast expanse of Dzogchen, which has no limits, or qualifications, or way of even being defined by words (like writing on water or air) there is no way to say Dzogchen is this or that. This concept, which is beyond concept, has no way to be referenced by concepts: yet, perhaps, it can be experienced.
So if you want to experience Dzogchen, then you can seek out Direct Introduction from a Dzogchen Master, take the Dzogchen teachings, do the Dzogchen practices and directly see what you experience.
This is the tradition that Dzogchen comes from.
Then the ripples (left in their own condition - just "as it is,") cause no trouble for you or anyone. Then you rest in your undefined luminous awareness, not conditioned by what arises or doesn't arise, in your experience, 24/7.
Until then you can (recognizing impermanence, karma, old age sickness and death, and the uncertainty of human rebirth) try to practice a little.
Understanding is like a patch which falls off when circumstances change (Patrul R.) = all understandings are just more ripples, and don't cook the rice.
Only practice cooks the rice.
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8917
Enjoy the feast! Choose carefully, eat slowly - chew well.
[/quote]
-----------
Tashi delek Old Bob,
You know it very well, so well said , no doubt about it.
Mutsug Marro
KY
godhead wrote:It is ok for me, I do not want to create unnecessary ripplesMalcolm wrote:Yes, Dzogchen is part of Buddhadharma.godhead wrote:I am very anxious to know as to dzogchen is a part of BUddhism or not?
It doesn't, not at all.If yes then how does it contradict direct words of Guatam Buddha?
Excellent answers all -
My 2 cents.
No ripples here!
Perhaps all ripples are "necessary" until resolved by integration into practice = direct experience.
Perhaps in the vast expanse of Dzogchen, which has no limits, or qualifications, or way of even being defined by words (like writing on water or air) there is no way to say Dzogchen is this or that. This concept, which is beyond concept, has no way to be referenced by concepts: yet, perhaps, it can be experienced.
So if you want to experience Dzogchen, then you can seek out Direct Introduction from a Dzogchen Master, take the Dzogchen teachings, do the Dzogchen practices and directly see what you experience.
This is the tradition that Dzogchen comes from.
Then the ripples (left in their own condition - just "as it is,") cause no trouble for you or anyone. Then you rest in your undefined luminous awareness, not conditioned by what arises or doesn't arise, in your experience, 24/7.
Until then you can (recognizing impermanence, karma, old age sickness and death, and the uncertainty of human rebirth) try to practice a little.
Understanding is like a patch which falls off when circumstances change (Patrul R.) = all understandings are just more ripples, and don't cook the rice.
Only practice cooks the rice.
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8917
Enjoy the feast! Choose carefully, eat slowly - chew well.
[/quote]
-----------
Tashi delek Old Bob,
You know it very well, so well said , no doubt about it.
Mutsug Marro
KY
The best meditation is no meditation
Re: Wandering in Samsara
I know
My bag is full of precious gems and diomonds. And they are with me to give away because they are too many and never ending,
But to give away freely to those who do not value them is foolishness.
Dzogen is good, rather it is very good. And the secrecy that they keep is good and advisable.
Because Guatam knew this porblem and hence did not open up for twenty years.
even after 20 years when he was ready, More than 50% of his followers left him.
And those who left Him must have achieved upto rainbow body
So strong is the power of dzogen secrecy that those who left ,they defied even Guatam Buddha Himself.
Comparable I am a small fish. If I open up , I will be thrown out of this forum. Already I have received singnals to that effect.
My bag is full of precious gems and diomonds. And they are with me to give away because they are too many and never ending,
But to give away freely to those who do not value them is foolishness.
Dzogen is good, rather it is very good. And the secrecy that they keep is good and advisable.
Because Guatam knew this porblem and hence did not open up for twenty years.
even after 20 years when he was ready, More than 50% of his followers left him.
And those who left Him must have achieved upto rainbow body
So strong is the power of dzogen secrecy that those who left ,they defied even Guatam Buddha Himself.
Comparable I am a small fish. If I open up , I will be thrown out of this forum. Already I have received singnals to that effect.
"All my writing are my personal opinion unless otherwise specifically mentioned."