Turiiya

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Kaccāni
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Turiiya

Post by Kaccāni »

Hello all,

Vedanta, beyond the "3 normative states of consciousness" (here: waking, dream and (in early texts) deep sleep), knows a fourth state: turiiya. It is characterized as "permanent insight into reality, but without the distraction of an inner our an outter world".

Would you say that this "turiiya" corresponds to what dzogchen knows as "rigpa", or would you rather classify it as what ChNN calls "Shine", i.e. the calm, non-conceptual state of mind of Sutrayana?

Best wishes
Kc
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!
Malcolm
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Re: Turiiya

Post by Malcolm »

Kaccāni wrote:Hello all,

Vedanta, beyond the "3 normative states of consciousness" (here: waking, dream and (in early texts) deep sleep), knows a fourth state: turiiya. It is characterized as "permanent insight into reality, but without the distraction of an inner our an outter world".

Would you say that this "turiiya" corresponds to what dzogchen knows as "rigpa", or would you rather classify it as what ChNN calls "Shine", i.e. the calm, non-conceptual state of mind of Sutrayana?

Best wishes
Kc

First, I have never seen such a definition of Turiya, but in any case, Turiya is not rig pa.
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anjali
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Re: Turiiya

Post by anjali »

Malcolm wrote:
Kaccāni wrote:Vedanta, beyond the "3 normative states of consciousness" (here: waking, dream and (in early texts) deep sleep), knows a fourth state: turiiya. It is characterized as "permanent insight into reality, but without the distraction of an inner our an outter world".
First, I have never seen such a definition of Turiya, but in any case, Turiya is not rig pa.
The definition seems to be taken from Early Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism: The Mahayana Context of the Gaudapadiya-Karika, by Richard King:
...the emphasis in the GK is placed upon the fourth state (turiya), which is a permanent insight into reality (unlike the absence of awareness in deep sleep), but without the distractions of an inner world (as in dream and waking experience) and an outer world (as in the waking state, but also implicitly in the dream state).
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Re: Turiiya

Post by Wayfarer »

The derivation I am aware of is as follows - Verse VII of the Mandukya Upanishad describes Turiya:
Turiya is not that which is conscious of the inner (subjective) world, nor that which is conscious of the outer (objective) world, nor that which is conscious of both, nor that which is a mass of consciousness. It is not simple consciousness nor is It unconsciousness. It is unperceived, unrelated, incomprehensible, uninferable, unthinkable and indescribable. The essence of the Consciousness manifesting as the self in the three states, It is the cessation of all phenomena; It is all peace, all bliss and non—dual. This is what is known as the Fourth (Turiya). This is Atman and this has to be realized.
source.

Edited by Dan74
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philji
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Re: Turiiya

Post by philji »

Before members start wading in telling us all how different Turiya is from Rigpa... Can we just stop for a moment and admire and pay homage to those ancient sages of India who through their own inner exploration discovered and revealed such profound States of realisation, the scientists Nd explorers of their time.They are worthy of our respect not contempt as is so often the case here. :twothumbsup:
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Re: Turiiya

Post by Kaccāni »

anjali wrote: The definition seems to be taken from Early Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism: The Mahayana Context of the Gaudapadiya-Karika, by Richard King:
...the emphasis in the GK is placed upon the fourth state (turiya), which is a permanent insight into reality (unlike the absence of awareness in deep sleep), but without the distractions of an inner world (as in dream and waking experience) and an outer world (as in the waking state, but also implicitly in the dream state).
Thank you, that is true. I'm reading through that book right now, as I find the period interesting, particularly the positions of early Advaita, Madhayamaka and Yogacara.

However I was not aware of turiya as the complement to vaisvanara, taijasa and prajna. It probably was too late, or the book is written a bit confusing at that place, as turiya is discussed in the context of consciousness, but then not again mentioned in the discussion of the Mandukya Upanishad, where vaishvanara, taijasa and prajna are clearly presented as A, U, and M of OM, and correlated to the three other states (external = waking, internal radiant = dream, and bliss state of deep sleep).

Anyway, we're apparently talking about a period where the concept of karma turned from external ritualism ("thinking in recurring bodies"), to mental phenomena and "born" and "conditioned" became somewhat equal. Thereis likely to be confusion because of the equivocalness of concepts from different periods and subtleties of interpretations within different schools.

It was just an idea that came up while reading.

Best wishes
Kc
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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: Turiiya

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi »

Why is everyone so concerned to ecumenize evrything? We have a path already, we can do it.
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Re: Turiiya

Post by Kaccāni »

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:Why is everyone so concerned to ecumenize evrything? We have a path already, we can do it.
I'm not trying to ecumenize (well, all of us are, on our path, in some way, on a quest to the absolute). I'm simply reading up on history. Comparisons help to sort thoughts. Nothing to do with my practice.

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Kc
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Re: Turiiya

Post by Ivo »

philji wrote:Before members start wading in telling us all how different Turiya is from Rigpa... Can we just stop for a moment and admire and pay homage to those ancient sages of India who through their own inner exploration discovered and revealed such profound States of realisation, the scientists Nd explorers of their time.They are worthy of our respect not contempt as is so often the case here. :twothumbsup:
:good:
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Re: Turiiya

Post by dzogchungpa »

Ivo wrote:
philji wrote:Before members start wading in telling us all how different Turiya is from Rigpa... Can we just stop for a moment and admire and pay homage to those ancient sages of India who through their own inner exploration discovered and revealed such profound States of realisation, the scientists Nd explorers of their time.They are worthy of our respect not contempt as is so often the case here. :twothumbsup:
:good:
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There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Turiiya

Post by amanitamusc »

Malcolm wrote:
Kaccāni wrote:Hello all,

Vedanta, beyond the "3 normative states of consciousness" (here: waking, dream and (in early texts) deep sleep), knows a fourth state: turiiya. It is characterized as "permanent insight into reality, but without the distraction of an inner our an outter world".

Would you say that this "turiiya" corresponds to what dzogchen knows as "rigpa", or would you rather classify it as what ChNN calls "Shine", i.e. the calm, non-conceptual state of mind of Sutrayana?

Best wishes
Kc

First, I have never seen such a definition of Turiya, but in any case, Turiya is not rig pa.
:good:
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Ivo
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Re: Turiiya

Post by Ivo »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Image

Ha ha :smile: :smile: Exactly!
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Re: Turiiya

Post by dzogchungpa »

BTW, here's the updated version:

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(hat tip to krodha ;))
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Turiiya

Post by Ivo »

HAHAHA :smile: :smile: That made my day :rolling:
But..I am in Mexico, you know, I am not Mexican.... As is widely known these days, Mexicans are robbers, smuglers and rapists. I am just an ordinary tirthika only. :tongue:
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Turiiya

Post by dzogchungpa »

Yes, that krodha fellow is really a genius at this kind of thing.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Turiiya

Post by Caodemarte »

Just a note to bemused Mexicans and visiting heretics like Ivo, that, according to one Presidental candidate, you are much smarter and harder working than United Statesians. According to his U.S. senator supporter you also have excellent calf development, the hardest muscle to develop.

:namaste:
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Re: Turiiya

Post by Karma Dorje »

philji wrote:Before members start wading in telling us all how different Turiya is from Rigpa... Can we just stop for a moment and admire and pay homage to those ancient sages of India who through their own inner exploration discovered and revealed such profound States of realisation, the scientists Nd explorers of their time.They are worthy of our respect not contempt as is so often the case here. :twothumbsup:
Amen, brother. But everyone want's to have God's. Own. Truth.

... Even if they don't believe in God.

The funny thing is, Buddhism is never more like Christianity than when Budhist scholastics make ever more emphatic distinctions to prove how they are the only ones who are right.

Sad, really... but if it makes them happy :cheers:
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
amanitamusc
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Re: Turiiya

Post by amanitamusc »

Since this the Dzogchen forum I can say there are similarities withe Hinduism.
That being stated.The path of Dzogchen leads liberation and Hinduism does not.
I do admire many aspects of Hinduism.I practiced Raja yoga for 20 years.
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Re: Turiiya

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi »

Karma Dorje wrote:The funny thing is, Buddhism is never more like Christianity than when Budhist scholastics make ever more emphatic distinctions to prove how they are the only ones who are right.

Sad, really... but if it makes them happy :cheers:
You mean they think the four seals are right and the idea that the penal substitution of the son of God which takes away the sins of the world only for those who believe is not right?
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Re: Turiiya

Post by Malcolm »

Karma Dorje wrote:
The funny thing is, Buddhism is never more like Christianity than when Budhist scholastics make ever more emphatic distinctions to prove how they are the only ones who are right.
Did you ever hear of a little thing called the Nine Yānas? Or do you think the teachings of Dzogchen tantras are somehow irrelevant to the conversation?
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