Turiiya
Turiiya
Hello all,
Vedanta, beyond the "3 normative states of consciousness" (here: waking, dream and (in early texts) deep sleep), knows a fourth state: turiiya. It is characterized as "permanent insight into reality, but without the distraction of an inner our an outter world".
Would you say that this "turiiya" corresponds to what dzogchen knows as "rigpa", or would you rather classify it as what ChNN calls "Shine", i.e. the calm, non-conceptual state of mind of Sutrayana?
Best wishes
Kc
Vedanta, beyond the "3 normative states of consciousness" (here: waking, dream and (in early texts) deep sleep), knows a fourth state: turiiya. It is characterized as "permanent insight into reality, but without the distraction of an inner our an outter world".
Would you say that this "turiiya" corresponds to what dzogchen knows as "rigpa", or would you rather classify it as what ChNN calls "Shine", i.e. the calm, non-conceptual state of mind of Sutrayana?
Best wishes
Kc
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!
Re: Turiiya
Kaccāni wrote:Hello all,
Vedanta, beyond the "3 normative states of consciousness" (here: waking, dream and (in early texts) deep sleep), knows a fourth state: turiiya. It is characterized as "permanent insight into reality, but without the distraction of an inner our an outter world".
Would you say that this "turiiya" corresponds to what dzogchen knows as "rigpa", or would you rather classify it as what ChNN calls "Shine", i.e. the calm, non-conceptual state of mind of Sutrayana?
Best wishes
Kc
First, I have never seen such a definition of Turiya, but in any case, Turiya is not rig pa.
Re: Turiiya
The definition seems to be taken from Early Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism: The Mahayana Context of the Gaudapadiya-Karika, by Richard King:Malcolm wrote:First, I have never seen such a definition of Turiya, but in any case, Turiya is not rig pa.Kaccāni wrote:Vedanta, beyond the "3 normative states of consciousness" (here: waking, dream and (in early texts) deep sleep), knows a fourth state: turiiya. It is characterized as "permanent insight into reality, but without the distraction of an inner our an outter world".
...the emphasis in the GK is placed upon the fourth state (turiya), which is a permanent insight into reality (unlike the absence of awareness in deep sleep), but without the distractions of an inner world (as in dream and waking experience) and an outer world (as in the waking state, but also implicitly in the dream state).
Re: Turiiya
The derivation I am aware of is as follows - Verse VII of the Mandukya Upanishad describes Turiya:
Edited by Dan74
source.Turiya is not that which is conscious of the inner (subjective) world, nor that which is conscious of the outer (objective) world, nor that which is conscious of both, nor that which is a mass of consciousness. It is not simple consciousness nor is It unconsciousness. It is unperceived, unrelated, incomprehensible, uninferable, unthinkable and indescribable. The essence of the Consciousness manifesting as the self in the three states, It is the cessation of all phenomena; It is all peace, all bliss and non—dual. This is what is known as the Fourth (Turiya). This is Atman and this has to be realized.
Edited by Dan74
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
Re: Turiiya
Before members start wading in telling us all how different Turiya is from Rigpa... Can we just stop for a moment and admire and pay homage to those ancient sages of India who through their own inner exploration discovered and revealed such profound States of realisation, the scientists Nd explorers of their time.They are worthy of our respect not contempt as is so often the case here.
Re: Turiiya
Thank you, that is true. I'm reading through that book right now, as I find the period interesting, particularly the positions of early Advaita, Madhayamaka and Yogacara.anjali wrote: The definition seems to be taken from Early Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism: The Mahayana Context of the Gaudapadiya-Karika, by Richard King:
...the emphasis in the GK is placed upon the fourth state (turiya), which is a permanent insight into reality (unlike the absence of awareness in deep sleep), but without the distractions of an inner world (as in dream and waking experience) and an outer world (as in the waking state, but also implicitly in the dream state).
However I was not aware of turiya as the complement to vaisvanara, taijasa and prajna. It probably was too late, or the book is written a bit confusing at that place, as turiya is discussed in the context of consciousness, but then not again mentioned in the discussion of the Mandukya Upanishad, where vaishvanara, taijasa and prajna are clearly presented as A, U, and M of OM, and correlated to the three other states (external = waking, internal radiant = dream, and bliss state of deep sleep).
Anyway, we're apparently talking about a period where the concept of karma turned from external ritualism ("thinking in recurring bodies"), to mental phenomena and "born" and "conditioned" became somewhat equal. Thereis likely to be confusion because of the equivocalness of concepts from different periods and subtleties of interpretations within different schools.
It was just an idea that came up while reading.
Best wishes
Kc
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!
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Re: Turiiya
Why is everyone so concerned to ecumenize evrything? We have a path already, we can do it.
Re: Turiiya
I'm not trying to ecumenize (well, all of us are, on our path, in some way, on a quest to the absolute). I'm simply reading up on history. Comparisons help to sort thoughts. Nothing to do with my practice.Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:Why is everyone so concerned to ecumenize evrything? We have a path already, we can do it.
Best wishes
Kc
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!
Re: Turiiya
philji wrote:Before members start wading in telling us all how different Turiya is from Rigpa... Can we just stop for a moment and admire and pay homage to those ancient sages of India who through their own inner exploration discovered and revealed such profound States of realisation, the scientists Nd explorers of their time.They are worthy of our respect not contempt as is so often the case here.
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Re: Turiiya
Ivo wrote:philji wrote:Before members start wading in telling us all how different Turiya is from Rigpa... Can we just stop for a moment and admire and pay homage to those ancient sages of India who through their own inner exploration discovered and revealed such profound States of realisation, the scientists Nd explorers of their time.They are worthy of our respect not contempt as is so often the case here.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Turiiya
Malcolm wrote:Kaccāni wrote:Hello all,
Vedanta, beyond the "3 normative states of consciousness" (here: waking, dream and (in early texts) deep sleep), knows a fourth state: turiiya. It is characterized as "permanent insight into reality, but without the distraction of an inner our an outter world".
Would you say that this "turiiya" corresponds to what dzogchen knows as "rigpa", or would you rather classify it as what ChNN calls "Shine", i.e. the calm, non-conceptual state of mind of Sutrayana?
Best wishes
Kc
First, I have never seen such a definition of Turiya, but in any case, Turiya is not rig pa.
Re: Turiiya
dzogchungpa wrote:
Ha ha Exactly!
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Re: Turiiya
BTW, here's the updated version:
(hat tip to krodha )
(hat tip to krodha )
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Turiiya
HAHAHA That made my day
But..I am in Mexico, you know, I am not Mexican.... As is widely known these days, Mexicans are robbers, smuglers and rapists. I am just an ordinary tirthika only.
But..I am in Mexico, you know, I am not Mexican.... As is widely known these days, Mexicans are robbers, smuglers and rapists. I am just an ordinary tirthika only.
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Re: Turiiya
Yes, that krodha fellow is really a genius at this kind of thing.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Turiiya
Just a note to bemused Mexicans and visiting heretics like Ivo, that, according to one Presidental candidate, you are much smarter and harder working than United Statesians. According to his U.S. senator supporter you also have excellent calf development, the hardest muscle to develop.
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Re: Turiiya
Amen, brother. But everyone want's to have God's. Own. Truth.philji wrote:Before members start wading in telling us all how different Turiya is from Rigpa... Can we just stop for a moment and admire and pay homage to those ancient sages of India who through their own inner exploration discovered and revealed such profound States of realisation, the scientists Nd explorers of their time.They are worthy of our respect not contempt as is so often the case here.
... Even if they don't believe in God.
The funny thing is, Buddhism is never more like Christianity than when Budhist scholastics make ever more emphatic distinctions to prove how they are the only ones who are right.
Sad, really... but if it makes them happy
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
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Re: Turiiya
Since this the Dzogchen forum I can say there are similarities withe Hinduism.
That being stated.The path of Dzogchen leads liberation and Hinduism does not.
I do admire many aspects of Hinduism.I practiced Raja yoga for 20 years.
That being stated.The path of Dzogchen leads liberation and Hinduism does not.
I do admire many aspects of Hinduism.I practiced Raja yoga for 20 years.
- Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: Turiiya
You mean they think the four seals are right and the idea that the penal substitution of the son of God which takes away the sins of the world only for those who believe is not right?Karma Dorje wrote:The funny thing is, Buddhism is never more like Christianity than when Budhist scholastics make ever more emphatic distinctions to prove how they are the only ones who are right.
Sad, really... but if it makes them happy
Re: Turiiya
Did you ever hear of a little thing called the Nine Yānas? Or do you think the teachings of Dzogchen tantras are somehow irrelevant to the conversation?Karma Dorje wrote:
The funny thing is, Buddhism is never more like Christianity than when Budhist scholastics make ever more emphatic distinctions to prove how they are the only ones who are right.