Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness

Locked
Hansei
Posts: 130
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:02 pm

Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness

Post by Hansei »

Hello,

I've been a student of ChNNR for over a year. Does anybody know if I need to receive a particular transmission to read this book?

http://www.amazon.com/Self-Liberation-T ... +Awareness

Best wishes.
Simon E.
Posts: 7652
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness

Post by Simon E. »

Hansei wrote:Hello,

I've been a student of ChNNR for over a year. Does anybody know if I need to receive a particular transmission to read this book?

http://www.amazon.com/Self-Liberation-T ... +Awareness

Best wishes.
I suggest that to avoid lots of possibly speculative responses you put your question on http://www.vajracakra.com :namaste:
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness

Post by Malcolm »

Hansei wrote:Hello,

I've been a student of ChNNR for over a year. Does anybody know if I need to receive a particular transmission to read this book?

http://www.amazon.com/Self-Liberation-T ... +Awareness

Best wishes.

It is good if you have the lung, but no, you do not absolutely need it to read it.
Hansei
Posts: 130
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:02 pm

Re: Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness

Post by Hansei »

Malcolm wrote:It is good if you have the lung, but no, you do not absolutely need it to read it.
Thanks, Malcolm. Then I think I'm going to wait to receive the lung.

By any chance do you remember when was the last time ChNNR gave it?

Best wishes.
User avatar
heart
Posts: 6287
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness

Post by heart »

If you could get teachings on it, that would be best. Masters use teaching on texts like this to give the actual direct introduction.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote:If you could get teachings on it, that would be best. Masters use teaching on texts like this to give the actual direct introduction.

/magnus

Yes, I was going to add that today, texts like this, Flight of the Garuda and so on are really teachers manuals, and in general, would be given to the student after he or she had received the lung and khrid.

While I think at this point restricting texts is absurd, getting transmission for texts is not.
User avatar
Paul
Posts: 1726
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:12 pm

Re: Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness

Post by Paul »

I had the lung for Flight of the Garuda from Tsoknyi Rinpoche. He read a section of the Tibetan version and then a student read the same section from Erik Pema Kunsang's English translation. It was a great way to do it.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
steve_bakr
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:03 am

Re: Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness

Post by steve_bakr »

heart wrote:If you could get teachings on it, that would be best. Masters use teaching on texts like this to give the actual direct introduction.

/magnus
I have internalized "Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness," by Guru Padmasambhava and the accompanying commentary by John Reynolds. As the text says, there are no antecedent or subsequent requirements. It is not accurate to say that it is used to transmit the Direct Introduction, the reason being that the text itself IS the Direct Introduction, without intermediary. No Lung is required. It is simple, straightforward, perfectly understandable, and requires no further explanation or elaboration. It does not require an extraneous transmission, insofar as the text IS the transmission, and this is the very purpose it serves. The text is sufficient in and of itself. To argue anything other than this is to be motivated by an agenda that contradicts the essential message of the text itself. This text is exactly what it claims to be, without obscurations. Those who come to a complete internalization of this root text will clearly see the nature of their own mind.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7885
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Ya read a book, ya get enlightened. I gotta admit, that would be nice.
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness

Post by Malcolm »

steve_bakr wrote: As the text says, there are no antecedent or subsequent requirements.
Only someone ignorant about the cycle the text comes from would make this erroneous claim.
krodha
Posts: 2733
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness

Post by krodha »

steve_bakr wrote:I have internalized "Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness," by Guru Padmasambhava and the accompanying commentary by John Reynolds. As the text says, there are no antecedent or subsequent requirements. It is not accurate to say that it is used to transmit the Direct Introduction, the reason being that the text itself IS the Direct Introduction, without intermediary. No Lung is required. It is simple, straightforward, perfectly understandable, and requires no further explanation or elaboration. It does not require an extraneous transmission, insofar as the text IS the transmission, and this is the very purpose it serves. The text is sufficient in and of itself. To argue anything other than this is to be motivated by an agenda that contradicts the essential message of the text itself. This text is exactly what it claims to be, without obscurations. Those who come to a complete internalization of this root text will clearly see the nature of their own mind.
Does someone feed you this b.s. and then you regurgitate it? Or do you just make this stuff up as you go along?
User avatar
heart
Posts: 6287
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness

Post by heart »

steve_bakr wrote:
heart wrote:If you could get teachings on it, that would be best. Masters use teaching on texts like this to give the actual direct introduction.

/magnus
I have internalized "Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness," by Guru Padmasambhava and the accompanying commentary by John Reynolds. As the text says, there are no antecedent or subsequent requirements. It is not accurate to say that it is used to transmit the Direct Introduction, the reason being that the text itself IS the Direct Introduction, without intermediary. No Lung is required. It is simple, straightforward, perfectly understandable, and requires no further explanation or elaboration. It does not require an extraneous transmission, insofar as the text IS the transmission, and this is the very purpose it serves. The text is sufficient in and of itself. To argue anything other than this is to be motivated by an agenda that contradicts the essential message of the text itself. This text is exactly what it claims to be, without obscurations. Those who come to a complete internalization of this root text will clearly see the nature of their own mind.
I am afraid you have no idea of what you are talking about Steve.It is a wonderful text but is NOT a direct introduction without an actual master. Why don't you ask John Reynolds?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
amanitamusc
Posts: 2124
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness

Post by amanitamusc »

steve_bakr wrote:
heart wrote:If you could get teachings on it, that would be best. Masters use teaching on texts like this to give the actual direct introduction.

/magnus
I have internalized "Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness," by Guru Padmasambhava and the accompanying commentary by John Reynolds. As the text says, there are no antecedent or subsequent requirements. It is not accurate to say that it is used to transmit the Direct Introduction, the reason being that the text itself IS the Direct Introduction, without intermediary. No Lung is required. It is simple, straightforward, perfectly understandable, and requires no further explanation or elaboration. It does not require an extraneous transmission, insofar as the text IS the transmission, and this is the very purpose it serves. The text is sufficient in and of itself. To argue anything other than this is to be motivated by an agenda that contradicts the essential message of the text itself. This text is exactly what it claims to be, without obscurations. Those who come to a complete internalization of this root text will clearly see the nature of their own mind.
Can you name on Tibetan Buddhist Lama that agrees with you?
User avatar
Paul
Posts: 1726
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:12 pm

Re: Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness

Post by Paul »

asunthatneversets wrote:
steve_bakr wrote:I have internalized "Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness," by Guru Padmasambhava and the accompanying commentary by John Reynolds. As the text says, there are no antecedent or subsequent requirements. It is not accurate to say that it is used to transmit the Direct Introduction, the reason being that the text itself IS the Direct Introduction, without intermediary. No Lung is required. It is simple, straightforward, perfectly understandable, and requires no further explanation or elaboration. It does not require an extraneous transmission, insofar as the text IS the transmission, and this is the very purpose it serves. The text is sufficient in and of itself. To argue anything other than this is to be motivated by an agenda that contradicts the essential message of the text itself. This text is exactly what it claims to be, without obscurations. Those who come to a complete internalization of this root text will clearly see the nature of their own mind.
Does someone feed you this b.s. and then you regurgitate it? Or do you just make this stuff up as you go along?
This is basically Jax's point of view.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
User avatar
Garudavista
Posts: 119
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:36 pm

Re: Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness

Post by Garudavista »

Paul wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:
steve_bakr wrote:I have internalized "Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness," by Guru Padmasambhava and the accompanying commentary by John Reynolds. As the text says, there are no antecedent or subsequent requirements. It is not accurate to say that it is used to transmit the Direct Introduction, the reason being that the text itself IS the Direct Introduction, without intermediary. No Lung is required. It is simple, straightforward, perfectly understandable, and requires no further explanation or elaboration. It does not require an extraneous transmission, insofar as the text IS the transmission, and this is the very purpose it serves. The text is sufficient in and of itself. To argue anything other than this is to be motivated by an agenda that contradicts the essential message of the text itself. This text is exactly what it claims to be, without obscurations. Those who come to a complete internalization of this root text will clearly see the nature of their own mind.
Does someone feed you this b.s. and then you regurgitate it? Or do you just make this stuff up as you go along?
This is basically Jax's point of view.
Yep. Here is an example of him saying that direct introduction is not necessary in a discussion with Malcolm at the www.dharmaconnectiongroup site.
Jax wrote:
Isn't Longchenpa pointing to the fact that Awareness (rigpa) cannot be attained by training, practice or any efforts of any kind? He says that because Awareness is fully present right now. Its not hidden. He even says in the same text that no "direct introduction" or realization is necessary. Your cognitive presence that is experiencing, is the experience, of the five senses, as well as your thoughts and emotions...is this timelessly present Knowingness, that Norbu call pure "noticing". It's not more present after practice or study or transmission. Its the clear unchanging Awareness that appears as everything. Is it really so hard to notice that the Awareness he is speaking of is your present open and clear awareness just as it is?

Malcolm wrote:
No actually, what Longchenpa is talking about vidyā as dharmakāya.

Because vidyā is essenceless, because a substantial active agent is contradicted in the real state, and because it has always been naturally formed, there are no stages to train on, paths to traverse, mandala to create, empowerment to receive, path to meditate, commitments to protect, activities to accomplish and so on. There is no need create again what has already formed naturally. If it were necessary, conventionally designating natural formation as unconditioned would be invalid. Consequently, the dharmakāya would be perishable because it would be conditioned, and because it would have been made by causes and conditions.

The purpose of this statement is to point out that in reality there are no agent and actions so therefore these following things do not exist in vidyā, the dharmakāya. It does not mean that there is nothing to do. Most people are unaware that lhun grub means "not made by anyone". It means that vidyā cannot be fabricated, only recognized.

But Longchenpa does not say that introduction is unnecessary. On the contrary, chapter nine explicitly teachs introduction:

"From the two systems in which naked vidyā is suddenly recognized, this is the introduction which does not depend on critical points. Since that stark, uninterrupted and uniform awareness (which does not move outwardly, grasp inwardly, rest in middle, is not fabricated with the mind and is without conceptual movement) exists at all times, by introducing it's naked arising within the state of the blessing at the time when the master and student are momentarily in the same state, starkness is seen nakedly. That alone can generate confidence in dharmakāya. The critical point is to sustain that state without meditation and without distraction."

Then of course there is the system of introduction that depends on six critical points.

However your contention "He even says in the same text that no 'direct introduction' or realization is necessary." is proven to be false.
krodha
Posts: 2733
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness

Post by krodha »

Garudavista wrote:
Paul wrote:This is basically Jax's point of view.
Yep. Here is an example of him saying that direct introduction is not necessary in a discussion with Malcolm at the http://www.dharmaconnectiongroup site.
Jax wrote:
Isn't Longchenpa pointing to the fact that Awareness (rigpa) cannot be attained by training, practice or any efforts of any kind? He says that because Awareness is fully present right now. Its not hidden. He even says in the same text that no "direct introduction" or realization is necessary. Your cognitive presence that is experiencing, is the experience, of the five senses, as well as your thoughts and emotions...is this timelessly present Knowingness, that Norbu call pure "noticing". It's not more present after practice or study or transmission. Its the clear unchanging Awareness that appears as everything. Is it really so hard to notice that the Awareness he is speaking of is your present open and clear awareness just as it is?

Malcolm wrote:
No actually, what Longchenpa is talking about vidyā as dharmakāya.

Because vidyā is essenceless, because a substantial active agent is contradicted in the real state, and because it has always been naturally formed, there are no stages to train on, paths to traverse, mandala to create, empowerment to receive, path to meditate, commitments to protect, activities to accomplish and so on. There is no need create again what has already formed naturally. If it were necessary, conventionally designating natural formation as unconditioned would be invalid. Consequently, the dharmakāya would be perishable because it would be conditioned, and because it would have been made by causes and conditions.

The purpose of this statement is to point out that in reality there are no agent and actions so therefore these following things do not exist in vidyā, the dharmakāya. It does not mean that there is nothing to do. Most people are unaware that lhun grub means "not made by anyone". It means that vidyā cannot be fabricated, only recognized.

But Longchenpa does not say that introduction is unnecessary. On the contrary, chapter nine explicitly teachs introduction:

"From the two systems in which naked vidyā is suddenly recognized, this is the introduction which does not depend on critical points. Since that stark, uninterrupted and uniform awareness (which does not move outwardly, grasp inwardly, rest in middle, is not fabricated with the mind and is without conceptual movement) exists at all times, by introducing it's naked arising within the state of the blessing at the time when the master and student are momentarily in the same state, starkness is seen nakedly. That alone can generate confidence in dharmakāya. The critical point is to sustain that state without meditation and without distraction."

Then of course there is the system of introduction that depends on six critical points.

However your contention "He even says in the same text that no 'direct introduction' or realization is necessary." is proven to be false.
It's actually originally from here, and then was re-posted to the dharmaconnection blog:

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... 10&start=0
steve_bakr
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:03 am

Re: Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness

Post by steve_bakr »

steve_bakr wrote:
heart wrote:If you could get teachings on it, that would be best. Masters use teaching on texts like this to give the actual direct introduction.

/magnus
I have internalized "Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness," by Guru Padmasambhava and the accompanying commentary by John Reynolds. As the text says, there are no antecedent or subsequent requirements. It is not accurate to say that it is used to transmit the Direct Introduction, the reason being that the text itself IS the Direct Introduction, without intermediary. No Lung is required. It is simple, straightforward, perfectly understandable, and requires no further explanation or elaboration. It does not require an extraneous transmission, insofar as the text IS the transmission, and this is the very purpose it serves. The text is sufficient in and of itself. To argue anything other than this is to be motivated by an agenda that contradicts the essential message of the text itself. This text is exactly what it claims to be, without obscurations. Those who come to a complete internalization of this root text will clearly see the nature of their own mind.
There is a higher truth which is not wise to discuss in a forum, so I would only refer to it obliquely. There is no enlightenment. There is no nonenlightenment. It is like "chopping wood and carrying water," except there is no wood and no water. What remains is Buddha-nature. Everyone needs an aid.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness

Post by Malcolm »

steve_bakr wrote: There is no enlightenment. There is no nonenlightenment. It is like "chopping wood and carrying water," except there is no wood and no water.
This point of view is explicitly rejected in the Dzogchen tantras.
steve_bakr
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:03 am

Re: Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness

Post by steve_bakr »

Fortunately, there is no "I" to take offense. It is not about who said what. The truth is self-authenticating.
krodha
Posts: 2733
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness

Post by krodha »

steve_bakr wrote:Fortunately, there is no "I" to take offense. It is not about who said what. The truth is self-authenticating.
Dzogchen and Buddhism are never dealing with an "I" or a "self", so negating the "I" is a fool's errand that solves nothing.

Instead they deal with ignorance [avidyā], and afflictive habitual conditions of grasping that ensue as a result of said ignorance. You cannot uproot ignorance by declaring there is no "I", as this is a redundant point that has no bearing on anything due to the fact that an "I" has only ever been an imputation to begin with.
Locked

Return to “Dzogchen”