Some Questions about DC

[Queequeg]

I recently read The Crystal and the Way of Light. Undoubtedly, many details were lost on me, but generally, I could relate to the central tenet being the direct introduction. It seems to resemble what I know as the stage of “Hearing the Name” in the Sudden and Perfect Teaching of the Lotus Sutra as explained in the Tientai school. Certainly there are differences, probably more than I realize. If these distinctions can be identified, I am appreciative.

My point in this post however is not to have a comparative discussion, per se, as much to seek some explanation from people familiar with the subjects.

1. The Body of Light – A lot of what I read makes sense and is relatable – but when I get to the Body of Light, I don’t know if it’s a name for something I’m already familiar with or something I’ve never known before. To the extent possible, I am trying to get some intellectual understanding of this. I am skeptical of the accounts of masters dissolving into light at the termination of what I guess I’ll call their conventional lives. I’ll set my skepticism aside and settle on a position of agnosticism on that detail. I understand that only personal knowledge of this Body of Light would truly answer my questions, but, as it were, I need a little “pointing out” to know where to look. A starting place would be helpful, so, the dissolution suggests a certain nexus between mind and form – is there an explanation, coarse as it may be, of this relationship and how the dissolution “works”?

2. The necessity of the teacher – I get this as a practical matter. In my experience, and I will limit this example to secular matters, there have been many instances where I’ve had to learn the “tricks of the trade” through trial and error. I’ve often envied colleagues who learned our trade under the guidance of a generous and supportive mentor – they’ve expended much less energy learning basics and, at least in the short term, have been prepared to tackle much more ambitious tasks more confidently. There is something to be said of the deeper knowledge of basics you sometimes get when you “reinvent the wheel”, but the value of that knowledge is up for debate. That said, how does the pointing out by the teacher “work”? I get it in theory – that one is “shown” the way things really are. It’s still a little hazy to me. Is it achieved through ritual? Through conversation(s) as it were? Or something more subtle?

Thanks for your time.

[amanitamusc]

I can't answer your questions as well as others here so I will
limit my input to saying.

To understand Dzogchen,direct introduction is the only way.

Conceptual answers to describe the non conceptual will only give a hint.

[Queequeg]

Thanks. That's what I get is the only substantive answer. I realize asking these sorts of questions more or less just present risks of creating confusion.

[Simon E.]

PM sent.

[amanitamusc]

You are welcome .

You show some interest in Dzogchen.

Namkai Norbu Rinpoche teaches that the capacity of a Dzogchen practicioner is measured

by the amount of interest one has.

Good luck.

[Paul]

1. The Body of Light – A lot of what I read makes sense and is relatable – but when I get to the Body of Light, I don’t know if it’s a name for something I’m already familiar with or something I’ve never known before. To the extent possible, I am trying to get some intellectual understanding of this. I am skeptical of the accounts of masters dissolving into light at the termination of what I guess I’ll call their conventional lives. I’ll set my skepticism aside and settle on a position of agnosticism on that detail. I understand that only personal knowledge of this Body of Light would truly answer my questions, but, as it were, I need a little “pointing out” to know where to look. A starting place would be helpful, so, the dissolution suggests a certain nexus between mind and form – is there an explanation, coarse as it may be, of this relationship and how the dissolution “works”?

The body of light is a fruit of dzogchen practice: http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Rainbow_body

2. The necessity of the teacher – I get this as a practical matter. In my experience, and I will limit this example to secular matters, there have been many instances where I’ve had to learn the “tricks of the trade” through trial and error. I’ve often envied colleagues who learned our trade under the guidance of a generous and supportive mentor – they’ve expended much less energy learning basics and, at least in the short term, have been prepared to tackle much more ambitious tasks more confidently. There is something to be said of the deeper knowledge of basics you sometimes get when you “reinvent the wheel”, but the value of that knowledge is up for debate. That said, how does the pointing out by the teacher “work”? I get it in theory – that one is “shown” the way things really are. It’s still a little hazy to me. Is it achieved through ritual? Through conversation(s) as it were? Or something more subtle?

Thanks for your time.

There are three forms of transmission - direct (or mind-to-mind), symbolic, and oral. It can be through a very ritualised way such as an empowerment, a conversation, a gesture etc. - there are many ways. It takes the intention of a teacher, the intention of the student and the circumstances for their collaboration.

[dzogchungpa]

I recently read The Crystal and the Way of Light...

Is Qq going Dzogchen?


jk

About the body of light, you might find Kapstein's "The Strange Death of Pema the Demon-Tamer" interesting. It's in "The Presence of Light: Divine Radiance and Religious Experience" which is available online if you know where to look.

[Matt J]

Well, there is an explanation for the upcoming transmission.

http://tsegyalgar.org/localcenters/tseg ... onforthew/

[Queequeg]

I recently read The Crystal and the Way of Light...

Is Qq going Dzogchen?

Maybe I had gone all along but you and I never recognized it.



Seriously, though, IRL I'm not who I appear to be. In my defense. I doubt any of us are.

About the body of light, you might find Kapstein's "The Strange Death of Pema the Demon-Tamer" interesting. It's in "The Presence of Light: Divine Radiance and Religious Experience" which is available online if you know where to look.

Cryptic... I'll snoop around for it...

[Queequeg]

There are three forms of transmission - direct (or mind-to-mind), symbolic, and oral. It can be through a very ritualised way such as an empowerment, a conversation, a gesture etc. - there are many ways. It takes the intention of a teacher, the intention of the student and the circumstances for their collaboration.

Thanks.
The reference to the Rainbow Body page is... limited. I'm not expecting an E=MC2 proofs, but just a little more meat than the explanation that its the ultimate effect of practice and lists of people believed to have achieved it.

As for transmission - seems its variable. What is going on in these collaborations? We have the teacher - student arrangement. Is there physical contact? Sort of understanding, like that share between people who speak the same language, or is there an interaction on some level of the material or spiritual I'm not taking notice of?

[dzogchungpa]

About the body of light, you might find Kapstein's "The Strange Death of Pema the Demon-Tamer" interesting. It's in "The Presence of Light: Divine Radiance and Religious Experience" which is available online if you know where to look.

Cryptic... I'll snoop around for it...

If your snooping proves fruitless, almost all of the essay can be read here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=vkAJtFpXDP0C&pg=PA119

[Queequeg]

All set. Thanks.

[Paul]

There are three forms of transmission - direct (or mind-to-mind), symbolic, and oral. It can be through a very ritualised way such as an empowerment, a conversation, a gesture etc. - there are many ways. It takes the intention of a teacher, the intention of the student and the circumstances for their collaboration.

Thanks.
The reference to the Rainbow Body page is... limited. I'm not expecting an E=MC2 proofs, but just a little more meat than the explanation that its the ultimate effect of practice and lists of people believed to have achieved it.

You need to receive thogal instructions to properly understand it. It is all experiential, really.

As for transmission - seems its variable. What is going on in these collaborations? We have the teacher - student arrangement. Is there physical contact? Sort of understanding, like that share between people who speak the same language, or is there an interaction on some level of the material or spiritual I'm not taking notice of?

It can be in the form of a guided meditation, for example. Or in the form of an empowerment. The siddha Naropa got hit in the head with a shoe. So there's not really any limit to the form it could take.

If you take dzogchen teachings from a teacher like Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche you'll get to experience it. Again, it's experiential - there's not much point in talking about it really. Best to find a master and get stuck in, either in person or via webcast. Given that it's never been easier in the history of mankind to get in touch with genuine masters this should definitely be your next step.

[amanitamusc]

[quote="Queequeg"]







Seriously, though, IRL I'm not who I appear to be. In my defense. I doubt any of







This is a valid point.

This may be a coincidence but I think not. Today ChNN Rinpoche is starting a retreat that will be webcast.

He will be giving Direct Introduction .

Someone can post a link.I haven't mastered my tablet.

[williamlam]

For ChNN Rinpoche's webcast, which one of them are Direct Introduction or Pointing Out Instructions for Dzogchen Realization and which ones are transmission of secondary practices? How can you tell?

[Ivo]

The reference to the Rainbow Body page is... limited. I'm not expecting an E=MC2 proofs...

If you want the physics side of things, it is actually quite simple. Everything is vibrational frequencies. By doing certain practices you can raise your vibrational frequency to that of light, and beyond. It is very easy to intellectually understand, it's not unfathomable. Doing it is the hard part and will require you to have the courage to go beyond the ordinary mind.

[heart]

For ChNN Rinpoche's webcast, which one of them are Direct Introduction or Pointing Out Instructions for Dzogchen Realization and which ones are transmission of secondary practices? How can you tell?

Just keep listening at it will become very clear to you.

/magnus

[Queequeg]

On Dzogchungpa's suggestion, I read Kapstein's article on Pema the Demon Tamer.

I appreciate scholarly articles like that. Very informative, but as Kapstein concludes, nothing he presents speaks to the reality of the body of light. I'm fine with that for the time being.

There is something ameliorating to think of ourselves as essentially light. Whether its True or not, I found the idea certainly provisionally expedient. I spent a day thinking of myself and all the people I encountered as primordial light and it felt good, and my good will toward others was aroused.

The reference to the Rainbow Body page is... limited. I'm not expecting an E=MC2 proofs...

If you want the physics side of things, it is actually quite simple. Everything is vibrational frequencies. By doing certain practices you can raise your vibrational frequency to that of light, and beyond. It is very easy to intellectually understand, it's not unfathomable. Doing it is the hard part and will require you to have the courage to go beyond the ordinary mind.

Kapstein suggested viewing the Body of Light as we might think of advanced technology in science fiction. I thought that was an odd argument, but I get it.

Taking this premise for granted, that all things are vibrational frequencies, why limit this dispersal into light to the personal body? If one can so transform one's body into light, why not transform the entirety of the dharma dhatu into light? Free all beings in one instant? Is there some real distinction between the body and the environment in which the body is ensconced?

[Malcolm]

Taking this premise for granted, that all things are vibrational frequencies, why limit this dispersal into light to the personal body? If one can so transform one's body into light, why not transform the entirety of the dharma dhatu into light? Free all beings in one instant? Is there some real distinction between the body and the environment in which the body is ensconced?

It is simple really. Consciousness in its pristine state arises as an appearance of color to itself. This appearance is reified as the elements and so on.

When one attains buddhahood in the system of Dzogchen, everything and all sentient beings are liberated into light.

Rainbow body is just a sign that you have reached this realization. One does not transform one's body into light, one's body reverts into light.

[Queequeg]

It is simple really. Consciousness in its pristine state arises as an appearance of color to itself. This appearance is reified as the elements and so on.

When one attains buddhahood in the system of Dzogchen, everything and all sentient beings are liberated into light.

Rainbow body is just a sign that you have reached this realization. One does not transform one's body into light, one's body reverts into light.

Its not that simple to me.

The implication seems to be that my ignorance appears to you as form also. If I was realized, however, my form would appear to you to revert into light.

Can you flesh this out.