Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by heart »

treehuggingoctopus wrote:It is interesting, though, that while Rongzompa, Longchenpa, Jigmed Lingpa, Ju Mipham and so many other central Nyingma figures insist on the clear division between the Sutrayana and the Vajrayana and are absolutely upfront about Dzogchen being the highest vehicle (as well as the only one that rejects the two truths schema), many contemporary Nyingma teachers attempt to blur or even dissolve such boundaries. Or tend to present them in a very oblique way.
Do you have an example of this, because it don't corresponds to my experience.

/magnus
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Sure. Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche and Khenpo Tsewang Dongyal Rinpoche in their Shedra series.

There are others, but I cannot give you the names, at least not at present.
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by dreambow »

Whilst the input has been very interesting and people have shown themselves to be very erudite ...never the less the topic was ND Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta. Could we please get back on track?
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by muni »

Desartes said: I think, therefore I am. If no thinking, then what? THEN WHAT?

I am Buddhist? I am Dzogchenpa? I am Advaita Vedantapa? I am... WHAT before the thinking, conceptual mind? WHAT?

Not one, not two, not many. How can there be any fixation? How can there be Dzogchen/Nature AND? Please be kind and enlighten me.
When * experiencer-experiencing-experience * are not two, not one, not many?
Can a dualistic fixation be other than by the identification with the conceptual thinking mind, grasping to an existence apart from itself, an existence which is wrong/right?
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by heart »

treehuggingoctopus wrote:Sure. Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche and Khenpo Tsewang Dongyal Rinpoche in their Shedra series.

There are others, but I cannot give you the names, at least not at present.
I haven't read all that material but I am pretty sure you misunderstand if you think the Khenpo brothers don't consider Ati yoga the highest teaching. When you teach on a particular yana, that yana is always presented as the highest, in fact only lower yanas are presented. I guess their book on Ati yoga will appear in a year or so and then you will find your familiar point of view.

/magnus
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Malcolm »

dreambow wrote:Whilst the input has been very interesting and people have shown themselves to be very erudite ...never the less the topic was ND Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta. Could we please get back on track?
By demonstrating that there is no transpersonal basis in Dzogchen, it has been shown that there is a huge difference in meaning between what the term "nondual" means in Dzogchen and other systems.
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Vasana »

Malcolm wrote:
dreambow wrote:Whilst the input has been very interesting and people have shown themselves to be very erudite ...never the less the topic was ND Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta. Could we please get back on track?
By demonstrating that there is no transpersonal basis in Dzogchen, it has been shown that there is a huge difference in meaning between what the term "nondual" means in Dzogchen and other systems.
Malcolm ,
Is it correct to say there is neither a trans-personal or a personal basis In Dzogchen?

This is something I'm struggling with at the moment. Wouldn't a personal basis by definition entail reifying a person, subjective-agency or self-existing referent? I'm sure it ties in to your current signature.

The only way i can reconcile the idea that the myriad-displays of personal baseis can be called 'personal' is in the same way that each puddle has it's own 'personal' reflection of the moon. One moon per puddle.
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by krodha »

Vasana wrote:This is something I'm struggling with at the moment. Wouldn't a personal basis by definition entail reifying a person, subjective-agency or self-existing referent? I'm sure it ties in to your current signature.
The basis is conventionally personal.
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Vasana »

Thanks for clarifying.

Am i right in thinking that of the four qualifications/Samayas within Dzogchen , Chigpu covers the point of there being no transpersonal basis ?

Ch.N.N.R says,

"The real state is one. For that reason, at the centre of the vajra there is one, single ball. 'One', here, does not mean that all sentient beings share in the same or identical state. For example, in The Invocation of Samantabha­ dra, it says zhi chig lam nyi drebu ny. Zhi chig, here, means 'same base'. By 'same base', it is not meant that all sentient be­ings share in the one base. Many people have this idea, which is similar to the way in which Brahma is explained in Hinduism: the one state of Brahma. But, this is not the meaning. Zhi chig is to be understood as the 'oneness' of the base.

This is the case, because there is no difference between my primordial state, your primordial state, and the primordial state of others - same nature, same essence, same qualification. But, it doesn't mean that all sentient beings have become one.Because, even if there is no concept of an individual, the characteristic traits always remain.

[...]There is no difference between Manjushri and Buddha Amitayus: with regard to their real qualification, they are the same.But, their relationship with sentient beings when they were on the path was different and in the state of total illumination or realization, their wisdom always manifests in different ways. So, you must understand it in this way."
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Tashi delek,

A long story and i did not follow all the conversations, sorry too much.

All in all, Dzogchen would be exclusive to Dzogchenpas or other said only in Dzogchen one can obtain the Rainbow Body.
Vedanta would be somehow based on dualisms, that means the wrong self, which is denied in Buddhism, would be developed in Advaita.
Dzogchen is not ta all based on this dualistic self which is the base of ego.

If that would be right, then Dzogchen would be exclusive to Dzogchenpas and Advaita must have another experience of the self and another view towards this self. Or is the philosophy of Advaita different but the Yogic experience similar to Dzogchen experience? Here is meant the experience of the Clear Light.

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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Derek »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Matt J wrote:He also interestingly does not rule out a correspondence with Kashmir Shaivism.
FWIW I recently heard Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, whose Deer Park Institute regularly holds courses and seminars on Kashmir Shaivism, say that it is "very, very identical" with Vajrayana Buddhism
I've been reading Part III of John Reynolds' The Golden Letters, which addresses the historical origins of Dzogchen. As you know, the tradition's founding myth (Garab Dorje, Uddiyana, etc.) has been the subject of much skepticism, and not only from Western scholars. Eighteenth-century Tibetan historian Sumpa Khanpo asserted that, contrary to what the tradition claims about its own origins, Dzogchen actually began when a Hindu sadhu came to Tibet pretending to be Padmasambhava and teaching Vedanta, claiming all the while that it was a form of Buddhism. Earlier on, in the thirteenth century, Sakya Pandita claimed that Dzogchen had been influenced by Chan, the view that would be repeated in our own time by Giuseppe Tucci. For what it's worth, Reynolds rejects all such criticism on the grounds that it is never supported by any evidence, though he does not admit that the traditional history is equally lacking in evidence. For myself, I do find intriguing hints that Dzogchen may have some relationship with Kashmir Shaivism. Here I believe there is documented evidence to make such a hypothesis at least seem plausible.

1. Time period. If we rely on verifiable sources (rather than on unverifiable assertions), both Kashmir Shaivism and Dzogchen arose in the closing centuries of the first millennium A.D. This is a better fit chronologically than the idea that Dzogchen was influenced by Chan.

2. Literary form. In both traditions, the founding texts take the literary form of a dialogue. In Kashmir Shaivism: "The Tantras are usually in the form of a dialogue between Shiva and Shakti. Shakti asks questions and Shiva gives the answers" (Swami Shankarananda, Consciousness is Everything: The Yoga of Kashmir Shaivism). In Dzogchen: The fundamental tantra consists of "a dialogue between Sattvavajra, who poses the questions, and Buddha Kunjed Gyalpo, synonymous with Samantabhadra, who answers them" (Chogyal Namkhai Norbu and Adriano Clemente, The Supreme Source, translated by Andrew Lukianowicz).

3. The mirror analogy. Both Kashmir Shaivism and Dzogchen make repeated use of the analogy of a mirror. From Kashmir Shaivism: "In the same way as the mirror underlies everything in the reflection, so God as Consciousness pervades everything reflected in it" (Abhinavagupta, quoted in Swami Shankarananda, Consciousness is Everything: The Yoga of Kashmir Shaivism). From Dzogchen: "A master may show the disciple a mirror and explain how the mirror does not judge the reflections arising in it to be either beautiful or ugly: the mirror is not changed by whatever kind of reflection may arise, nor is its capacity to reflect impaired" (Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, The Crystal and the Way of Light).

4. Initiatory experience. Both traditions stress the importance of the master's transmission to the disciple. In Kashmir Shaivism, the master initiates the disciple with Shaktipat. In Dzogchen, the master initiates the disciple with Direct Introduction.

5. Consciousness. In both traditions, the central focus is on consciousness, and in particular on pure consciousness.
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Malcolm »

Derek wrote:
5. Consciousness. In both traditions, the central focus is on consciousness, and in particular on pure consciousness.
No, the focus in Dzogchen is not on consciousness per se (the all-basis, the ālaya), it is on understanding the basis, which is inseparable emptiness and clarity.

Moreover, Trika is grounded in the modified Saṃkhya of the Shaiva tradition; whereas Dzogchen has its feet firmly planted in Abhidharma and Madhyamaka.
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by dzogchungpa »

Derek wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:FWIW I recently heard Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, whose Deer Park Institute regularly holds courses and seminars on Kashmir Shaivism, say that it is "very, very identical" with Vajrayana Buddhism
I've been reading Part III of John Reynolds' The Golden Letters...
BTW, you can see/hear what I was referring to here:

phpBB [video]


It should start at the right place, but if not it's at 6:55.
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Malcolm »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Derek wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:FWIW I recently heard Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, whose Deer Park Institute regularly holds courses and seminars on Kashmir Shaivism, say that it is "very, very identical" with Vajrayana Buddhism
I've been reading Part III of John Reynolds' The Golden Letters...
BTW, you can see/hear what I was referring to here:

phpBB [video]


It should start at the right place, but if not it's at 6:55.
Sure, this is his opinion. I think he is completely wrong and overstating the case.
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by BuddhaFollower »

The the Guhyasiddhi of Padmavajra, a work associated with the Guhyasamaja tradition, prescribes acting as a Saiva guru and initiating members into Saiva Siddhanta scriptures and mandalas.

http://www.alexissanderson.com/uploads/ ... va_age.pdf

pp. 144-145.
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by dzogchungpa »

Malcolm wrote:Sure, this is his opinion. I think he is completely wrong and overstating the case.
Understood, I just wanted people to see that I wasn't making it up. :smile:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Malcolm »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Sure, this is his opinion. I think he is completely wrong and overstating the case.
Understood, I just wanted people to see that I wasn't making it up. :smile:
Oh, we know you are not making it up:

http://www.deerpark.in/programs/archive ... nda-k-rik/

While I certainly applaud his openness in allowing specialists in non=Buddhist traditions teach in depth presentations of their tenets where Buddhists can listen to them, I think it is somewhat strange to make the unequivocal assertion that Trika (which has three different systems: kūla, spanda, and pratyabhijñā) and Vajrayāna are identical in meaning. And, I don't see any Bonpo teachers offering teachings there. Which is a bit strange because the first Khyentse was quite close to Bon. Bon and Vajrayāna are in fact identical in meaning. Bon needs more support that Trika.
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by dzogchungpa »

Malcolm wrote:While I certainly applaud his openness in allowing specialists in non=Buddhist traditions teach in depth presentations of their tenets where Buddhists can listen to them...
You're applauding something about DJKR?


:jawdrop:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Malcolm »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:While I certainly applaud his openness in allowing specialists in non=Buddhist traditions teach in depth presentations of their tenets where Buddhists can listen to them...
You're applauding something about DJKR?
I have nothing against DKR. Having an aversion to someone is quite different than disagreeing with their view on this or that point. He has a lot of responsibilities thrust upon him. I would not want to be him or anyone like him, ever. Being recognized a tulku is a sure fire way to make sure that subject of the recognition will never have their own life.
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Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta

Post by Derek »

dzogchungpa wrote:BTW, you can see/hear what I was referring to here:

It should start at the right place, but if not it's at 6:55.
Thanks. I listened to a little bit, and it was very good.
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