Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

[Grigoris]

This is because they are teaching Mahāmudra as a goal. Dzogchen (and actual Mahāmudra) is not a goal.

Nope. They are not teaching that the goal of the practice is to achieve Mahamudra, they teach that all practice IS Mahamudra.

[conebeckham]

Well, when they are practicing HYT practices, they are not practicing Dzogchen.

Okay, that is the point that needed clarification.

My teachers, so far, teach that all practice is ultimately Mahamudra practice.

This is because they are teaching Mahāmudra as a goal. Dzogchen (and actual Mahāmudra) is not a goal.

Well, I would interpret that they are teaching Mahamudra as a path. I agree it is not a "goal," but based on perspective, it may be seen as one.

[Malcolm]

Okay, that is the point that needed clarification.

My teachers, so far, teach that all practice is ultimately Mahamudra practice.

This is because they are teaching Mahāmudra as a goal. Dzogchen (and actual Mahāmudra) is not a goal.

Well, I would interpret that they are teaching Mahamudra as a path. I agree it is not a "goal," but based on perspective, it may be seen as one.

Mahāmudra is generally approached as a goal to be realized through gathering the two accumulations and so on, no?

[Vasana]

You can still apply Dzogchen view to the other practices.
One of Dudjom Rinpoche's Medicine Buddha sadhana's (terma) involves a frontal visualisation only yet the commentary and view is very much Dzogchen.

In certain cases , if you have a specific connection with a deity or yidam then you might gain swifter results than if you practice without. Mantra and visualisation has a clear function in working with movement too. Appearance and movement that you might not otherwise be able to integrate as quickly dependent upon your aptitude.

As C.NnR says,if you practice Dzogchen, your practice it without limitations. If other methods help them use them.

[Malcolm]

You can still apply Dzogchen view to the other practices.

Yes, but nevertheless, this still working with mind. It is not the main point.

[Vasana]

You can still apply Dzogchen view to the other practices.

Yes, but nevertheless, this still working with mind. It is not the main point.

Yes my point was that when the appearances of samsara continue post-equipose, seeing them as illusory reflections in a mirror like the example deities body ,can help in the process of learning not to rely on mind or be moved by appearances. Integrating mantra and appearances as self-risen and self liberating just as the S.o.v arises naturally as a dynamic expression.

[conebeckham]

This is because they are teaching Mahāmudra as a goal. Dzogchen (and actual Mahāmudra) is not a goal.

Well, I would interpret that they are teaching Mahamudra as a path. I agree it is not a "goal," but based on perspective, it may be seen as one.

Mahāmudra is generally approached as a goal to be realized through gathering the two accumulations and so on, no?

No.

Not in my experience--though of course, there is a presentation of Mahamudra as "fruition," and gathering the two accumulations, etc., as path practices, along with pretty much every other practice one can engage in, including the two stages, leads to a "goal," there is also a way of understanding Mahamudra as "Ground" and "Path."

[Malcolm]

Well, I would interpret that they are teaching Mahamudra as a path. I agree it is not a "goal," but based on perspective, it may be seen as one.

Mahāmudra is generally approached as a goal to be realized through gathering the two accumulations and so on, no?

No.

Not in my experience--though of course, there is a presentation of Mahamudra as "fruition," and gathering the two accumulations, etc., as path practices, along with pretty much every other practice one can engage in, including the two stages, leads to a "goal," there is also a way of understanding Mahamudra as "Ground" and "Path."

Yes, I understand the presentation to which you refer, but simply put, Mahāmudra is on a cause and result continuum or it isn't.

[Malcolm]

This is because they are teaching Mahāmudra as a goal. Dzogchen (and actual Mahāmudra) is not a goal.

Nope. They are not teaching that the goal of the practice is to achieve Mahamudra, they teach that all practice IS Mahamudra.

Actually, what the Mahāsiddhas state is that everything is mahāmudra, it has nothing to do with whether one practices or not.

[MiphamFan]

Because people have relative circumstances.

What do you mean by that? Is Dzogchen not sufficient, or is it functional only for some people?

Astus, for example, let us say you are a Dzogchen practitioner, but you have a problem with alcohol. In order to overcome that problem, you might adopt the pratimokṣa vows until you overcome that problem.

Let is say that you have a clear sign your lifeforce is dwindling, then you might want to resort to various methods of cheating death and prolonging life.

Dzogchen practitioners can use various methods in order to overcome problems that arise because of impure vision and karma, but the actual path of Dzogchen is never based on concepts and mind, unlike mahāyoga and anuyoga, and the rest of the Buddhist and non-Buddhist vehicles. This is all very straight forward and explained at length in the primary literature of Dzogchen.

So even magic from other traditions is OK? Hindu tantra, Kabbalah, Egyptian magic, ATR stuff (except where it involves animal sacrifice)?

But then again even if I wanted to, I probably couldn't make those stuff work because I don't have faith in them.

[Malcolm]

So even magic from other traditions is OK? Hindu tantra, Kabbalah, Egyptian magic, ATR stuff (except where it involves animal sacrifice)?

If you are sufficiently bored, sure.

[Grigoris]

This is because they are teaching Mahāmudra as a goal. Dzogchen (and actual Mahāmudra) is not a goal.

Nope. They are not teaching that the goal of the practice is to achieve Mahamudra, they teach that all practice IS Mahamudra.

Actually, what the Mahāsiddhas state is that everything is mahāmudra, it has nothing to do with whether one practices or not.

Yup. Practice just serves as a reminder of the fact. Others believe that practice is the means and Mahamudra is the result, which is not a wrong view, per se, either.

[Malcolm]

Others believe that practice is the means and Mahamudra is the result, which is not a wrong view, per se, either.

From the point of view of Dzogchen, this is a deviation of the lower vehicles.

[conebeckham]

Others believe that practice is the means and Mahamudra is the result, which is not a wrong view, per se, either.

From the point of view of Dzogchen, this is a deviation of the lower vehicles.

If one engages in KyeRim, for instance, which is mind-based, but with one's Awareness of the Nature permeating all mental activities, is that a deviation, in the Dzogchen system?

[Malcolm]

Others believe that practice is the means and Mahamudra is the result, which is not a wrong view, per se, either.

From the point of view of Dzogchen, this is a deviation of the lower vehicles.

If one engages in KyeRim, for instance, which is mind-based, but with one's Awareness of the Nature permeating all mental activities, is that a deviation, in the Dzogchen system?

If you think any mind based activity will result in buddhahood, it is a deviation from a Dzogchen POV.

[conebeckham]

From the point of view of Dzogchen, this is a deviation of the lower vehicles.

If one engages in KyeRim, for instance, which is mind-based, but with one's Awareness of the Nature permeating all mental activities, is that a deviation, in the Dzogchen system?

If you think any mind based activity will result in buddhahood, it is a deviation from a Dzogchen POV.

Thus, for one who practices Dzogchen, deity practices are either deviations--if one understands those practices to be means toward Buddhahood--or not, if one practices with other "goals" or "mundane needs" in mind?

[philji]

Looking forward to this , out in October.

[BuddhaFollower]

From the point of view of Dzogchen, this is a deviation of the lower vehicles.

If one engages in KyeRim, for instance, which is mind-based, but with one's Awareness of the Nature permeating all mental activities, is that a deviation, in the Dzogchen system?

If you think any mind based activity will result in buddhahood, it is a deviation from a Dzogchen POV.

Dudjom Rinpoche says the same:

The eight lower levels have intellectually fabricated and contrived that which is changeless solely due to fleeting thoughts that never experience what truly is. They apply antidotes to and reject that which is not to be rejected. They refer to as flawed that in which there is nothing to be purified, with a mind that desires purification. They have created division with respect to that which cannot be obtained by their hopes and fears that it can be obtained elsewhere. And they have obscured wisdom, which is naturally present, by their efforts in respect to that which is free from effort and free from needing to be accomplished. Therefore, they have had no chance to make contact with genuine, ultimate reality as it is (rnal ma'i de kho na nyid).------Wisdom Nectar

[conebeckham]

Mahāmudra is generally approached as a goal to be realized through gathering the two accumulations and so on, no?

No.

Not in my experience--though of course, there is a presentation of Mahamudra as "fruition," and gathering the two accumulations, etc., as path practices, along with pretty much every other practice one can engage in, including the two stages, leads to a "goal," there is also a way of understanding Mahamudra as "Ground" and "Path."

Yes, I understand the presentation to which you refer, but simply put, Mahāmudra is on a cause and result continuum or it isn't.

It very much depends on the practitioner.

[Malcolm]

If one engages in KyeRim, for instance, which is mind-based, but with one's Awareness of the Nature permeating all mental activities, is that a deviation, in the Dzogchen system?

If you think any mind based activity will result in buddhahood, it is a deviation from a Dzogchen POV.

Thus, for one who practices Dzogchen, deity practices are either deviations--if one understands those practices to be means toward Buddhahood--or not, if one practices with other "goals" or "mundane needs" in mind?

Mipham explains it well, in his commentary on Mañjuśrimitra's Meditation of Awakened Mind:

• If it is asked, “What is the method of realizing the definitive meaning through the indirect method?,” since nonactivity is illustrated with the activity of fabricated efforts, like pointing to the moon with the finger, also awakened mind correctly grasped through a symbol will accomplish awakening, because the Bhagavan Buddha, the teacher of devas and humans, has declared that it is “great awakening.” Any unfortunate one who conceptualizes entities should make efforts in the indirect method of realization.
  

This unfortunate one is anyone who has not discovered vidyā, or has difficulty doing so.

And:

• If one meditates generating the thought that the samadhis and the mudras are dharmatā, and therefore are not different, the ultimate awakened mind arises from that. If one actualizes the meditation, one realizes that all phenomena do not exist apart from one’s mind. The accumulations are gathered and obscurations are purified because of that meditation. One becomes realized through one’s continuum being blessed by the deity of pristine consciousness.