Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

User avatar
tomamundsen
Posts: 1484
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:50 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby tomamundsen » Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:59 am

BuddhaFollower wrote:Gelugs also used to reject terma myths.

So, are you a Gelugpa now, BuddhaFollower?

BuddhaFollower
Posts: 602
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby BuddhaFollower » Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:08 am

tomamundsen wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:Gelugs also used to reject terma myths.

So, are you a Gelugpa now, BuddhaFollower?


Gelugs used to reject terms myths.

Past tense.

Dalai Lama is a bit Nyingma. Probably a terton.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

User avatar
tomamundsen
Posts: 1484
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:50 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby tomamundsen » Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:21 am

BuddhaFollower wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:Gelugs also used to reject terma myths.

So, are you a Gelugpa now, BuddhaFollower?


Gelugs used to reject terms myths.

Past tense.

Dalai Lama is a bit Nyingma. Probably a terton.

:twothumbsup:

User avatar
Karma_Yeshe
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 3:47 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Karma_Yeshe » Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:46 am

conebeckham wrote:

Personally, I reject only strange women lying in ponds distributing swords--you know, farcical aquatic ceremonies and such.


Personally, I never rejeceted any kind of women :mrgreen:

MiphamFan
Posts: 611
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:46 am

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby MiphamFan » Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:01 am

Crazywisdom wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:Yes. Absolutely, Tantra came onto a scene and jujitsu'ed it, Indian medieval warlord culture, brahminism and crazy aceticisms). Then did that to the Tibetan one, when fighting with mountain ghosts became a thing. IOW, it is always about cutting through acculturation. Now why I wanted to get into the original mood of the thing is because this is a exactly what the Tibetan tantrics are not doing for the West, but are doing for China.

How are they doing it for China?


Amitovo :anjali: :anjali: :anjali: and the whole sutra slash lower Tantra style seems to mesh we'll with them

Yeah the Tibetans in the Chinese sphere seem to adapt their teachings for that audience, buying into the whole lower tantra purity schtick but is that really what the Indians did in Tibet?

The post-Imperial Tibetans were afraid of the inner tantras and the rhetoric of liberation and union but the Indians went ahead and taught them what they could, they didn't emphasize lower tantra.

Crazywisdom
Posts: 777
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Crazywisdom » Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:19 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:How are they doing it for China?


Amitovo :anjali: :anjali: :anjali: and the whole sutra slash lower Tantra style seems to mesh we'll with them

Yeah the Tibetans in the Chinese sphere seem to adapt their teachings for that audience, buying into the whole lower tantra purity schtick but is that really what the Indians did in Tibet?

The post-Imperial Tibetans were afraid of the inner tantras and the rhetoric of liberation and union but the Indians went ahead and taught them what they could, they didn't emphasize lower tantra.


Tibetans were paying good money for every sorcerer's secret. The rest got kadampa, monastic approach.
I say we go back the same way we came. -Mad Max

MiphamFan
Posts: 611
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:46 am

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby MiphamFan » Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:43 am

Some Tibetan lamas who want to teach Chinese emphasize vegetarianism and other stuff which Chinese associate with "Buddhism". This is quite bad for Tibetan nomads, very hard for them to live like that. Jamyang Kyi has written a few essays on this available translated on High Peaks Pure Earth.

MiphamFan
Posts: 611
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:46 am

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby MiphamFan » Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:36 am

florin wrote:Are there any vestiges of dzogchen teachings outside of tibet ?
What i dont understand is how such influential figures like Garab dorje, Manjushrimitra Shir Singha , Padmasambava etc, the forefathers of dzogchen teachings,...who were all non-tibetans, never succeded in developing a non-tibetan tradition...

Well, even completely Indian Vajrayana like Cakrasamvara, Hevajra etc failed to survive in India proper. Even the Newaris don't really practise like what the texts say. So you can say the same thing of any sarma lineage too.

MalaBeads
Posts: 701
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:47 am

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby MalaBeads » Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:01 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Yes. Absolutely, Tantra came onto a scene and jujitsu'ed it, Indian medieval warlord culture, brahminism and crazy aceticisms). Then did that to the Tibetan one, when fighting with mountain ghosts became a thing. IOW, it is always about cutting through acculturation. Now why I wanted to get into the original mood of the thing is because this is a exactly what the Tibetan tantrics are not doing for the West, but are doing for China.


I dont really know anything about martial arts, so I don't understand what you mean when you say "Tantra...jujitsu'ed it" what is the essence of jujitsu? What do you mean here?
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.

Crazywisdom
Posts: 777
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Crazywisdom » Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:04 pm

MalaBeads wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
Yes. Absolutely, Tantra came onto a scene and jujitsu'ed it, Indian medieval warlord culture, brahminism and crazy aceticisms). Then did that to the Tibetan one, when fighting with mountain ghosts became a thing. IOW, it is always about cutting through acculturation. Now why I wanted to get into the original mood of the thing is because this is a exactly what the Tibetan tantrics are not doing for the West, but are doing for China.


I dont really know anything about martial arts, so I don't understand what you mean when you say "Tantra...jujitsu'ed it" what is the essence of jujitsu? What do you mean here?


Uses its own momentum against itself.
I say we go back the same way we came. -Mad Max

MalaBeads
Posts: 701
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:47 am

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby MalaBeads » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:53 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
MalaBeads wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
Yes. Absolutely, Tantra came onto a scene and jujitsu'ed it, Indian medieval warlord culture, brahminism and crazy aceticisms). Then did that to the Tibetan one, when fighting with mountain ghosts became a thing. IOW, it is always about cutting through acculturation. Now why I wanted to get into the original mood of the thing is because this is a exactly what the Tibetan tantrics are not doing for the West, but are doing for China.


I dont really know anything about martial arts, so I don't understand what you mean when you say "Tantra...jujitsu'ed it" what is the essence of jujitsu? What do you mean here?


Uses its own momentum against itself.


Thank you.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.

User avatar
heart
Posts: 3691
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby heart » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:06 pm

BuddhaFollower wrote:Mahamudra as a separate system from HYT is a Tibetan invention.

Thread should be "HYT same as Dzogchen?"


And in that case HYT is an Indian invention, so what is your point? Either you accept that the source of the Tantras isn't in the human realm or everything is an invention, right?

/magnus
We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.
~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,
You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.
So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,
That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

-Longchenpa

User avatar
Kelwin
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:52 pm

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Kelwin » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:35 pm

heart wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:Mahamudra as a separate system from HYT is a Tibetan invention.

Thread should be "HYT same as Dzogchen?"


And in that case HYT is an Indian invention, so what is your point? Either you accept that the source of the Tantras isn't in the human realm or everything is an invention, right?

/magnus

I guess that's a topic for a seperate thread, but I'd be really interested to know how many people vote 'human invention', and how many people would vote 'deities teaching from another realm'. Possibly a bit of both.
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena

User avatar
Vasana
Posts: 787
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:22 am

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Vasana » Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:42 pm

Kelwin wrote:
heart wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:Mahamudra as a separate system from HYT is a Tibetan invention.

Thread should be "HYT same as Dzogchen?"


And in that case HYT is an Indian invention, so what is your point? Either you accept that the source of the Tantras isn't in the human realm or everything is an invention, right?

/magnus

I guess that's a topic for a seperate thread, but I'd be really interested to know how many people vote 'human invention', and how many people would vote 'deities teaching from another realm'. Possibly a bit of both.


I bet there's a third, fourth ,fith choice etc but ' a bit of both' seems most accommodating.

I think that Tantras arising as compassionate expressions from the clarity of one's mind satisfies both the 'human invention' advocates and the 'other' realm advocates. The 'other' realm being the non-deluded mind inseparable from Samanthabhadra, Vajradhara ,Vajrasattva and all of the bijas and mantra garlands of all Deities.

Again, there are probably more options given different contexts.
"If you think that buddhas and sentient beings are indivisible, you should honor and serve sentient beings to the same degree as you would the buddhas. Do you do that?" ~ Shri Singha

User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 13207
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Grigoris » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:55 pm

Kelwin wrote:I guess that's a topic for a seperate thread, but I'd be really interested to know how many people vote 'human invention', and how many people would vote 'deities teaching from another realm'. Possibly a bit of both.
Is there a difference?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

User avatar
Kelwin
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:52 pm

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Kelwin » Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:23 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Kelwin wrote:I guess that's a topic for a seperate thread, but I'd be really interested to know how many people vote 'human invention', and how many people would vote 'deities teaching from another realm'. Possibly a bit of both.
Is there a difference?

Spaghetti monster tells me to say 'no'. Does is matter if it's him or me?

Termas are full of superiority complexes. I guess it kind of matters if it's 'just' individuals writing inspired poetry, or actually enlightened beings trying to guide us all to something better. It also gives a different perspective on the question whether Dzogchen is somehow superior to all other paths or not.
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 22156
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:52 am

Kelwin wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
Kelwin wrote:I guess that's a topic for a seperate thread, but I'd be really interested to know how many people vote 'human invention', and how many people would vote 'deities teaching from another realm'. Possibly a bit of both.
Is there a difference?

Spaghetti monster tells me to say 'no'. Does is matter if it's him or me?

Termas are full of superiority complexes. I guess it kind of matters if it's 'just' individuals writing inspired poetry, or actually enlightened beings trying to guide us all to something better. It also gives a different perspective on the question whether Dzogchen is somehow superior to all other paths or not.


There is a very nice book composed by Lhatsun Namkhai Jigme which sets out to prove the superiority of Dzogchen. Perhaps I should translate it.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


"Belief is useless."

-- Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Crazywisdom
Posts: 777
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Crazywisdom » Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:55 am

heart wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:Mahamudra as a separate system from HYT is a Tibetan invention.

Thread should be "HYT same as Dzogchen?"


And in that case HYT is an Indian invention, so what is your point? Either you accept that the source of the Tantras isn't in the human realm or everything is an invention, right?

/magnus


Impermanence is not an invention. For me this sort of discovery is the litmus test of reliability.
I say we go back the same way we came. -Mad Max

Norwegian
Posts: 795
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Norwegian » Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:36 am

Malcolm wrote:
Kelwin wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:Is there a difference?

Spaghetti monster tells me to say 'no'. Does is matter if it's him or me?

Termas are full of superiority complexes. I guess it kind of matters if it's 'just' individuals writing inspired poetry, or actually enlightened beings trying to guide us all to something better. It also gives a different perspective on the question whether Dzogchen is somehow superior to all other paths or not.


There is a very nice book composed by Lhatsun Namkhai Jigme which sets out to prove the superiority of Dzogchen. Perhaps I should translate it.

Dzogchen translations are always very welcome! :)

User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: New England

Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Virgo » Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:25 am

Malcolm wrote:There is a very nice book composed by Lhatsun Namkhai Jigme which sets out to prove the superiority of Dzogchen. Perhaps I should translate it.

Please do!

Kevin
"When we are following Dharma, any kind of Dharma - Sutra, Tantra - most important is that first of all we know our condition, not Dharma". - The maestro ChNN


Return to “Dzogchen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: zenman and 51 guests