Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:39 pm

Kelwin wrote:
As for the quote by Milarepa, I have no idea why that would refer to the Great Perfection? Is this the specific Tibetan terminology used here?


The term he uses for "prowess" is "nyams rtsal." The term is common enough, but the Lhastun is pointing out is his use of it in connection with awakened mind, byang chub sems, which Lhatsun apparently takes as a Dzogchen reference.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Grigoris » Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:49 pm

krodha wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:Received lung for Dudjom Rinpoche's "Buddhahood Without Meditation" twice now

Not to be a pedant, but I believe you mean Dudjom Lingpa.

Buddhahood Without Meditation is the title for the book which is a translation of his Rang bZhin rDzogs pa Chen po'i Rang Zhel mNgon du Byed pa'i gDams pa ma sGom Sangs rGyas bZhugs so.
Is there a difference?
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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:55 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
krodha wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:Received lung for Dudjom Rinpoche's "Buddhahood Without Meditation" twice now

Not to be a pedant, but I believe you mean Dudjom Lingpa.

Buddhahood Without Meditation is the title for the book which is a translation of his Rang bZhin rDzogs pa Chen po'i Rang Zhel mNgon du Byed pa'i gDams pa ma sGom Sangs rGyas bZhugs so.
Is there a difference?


Well, yes. Dudjom Lingpa passed away in 1904. Dudjom Rinpoche was born in 1904.

As far as the big red book goes, no, you dont need a lung, but it is good to receive it anyway.
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Kelwin
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Kelwin » Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:43 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Kelwin wrote:
As for the quote by Milarepa, I have no idea why that would refer to the Great Perfection? Is this the specific Tibetan terminology used here?


The term he uses for "prowess" is "nyams rtsal." The term is common enough, but the Lhastun is pointing out is his use of it in connection with awakened mind, byang chub sems, which Lhatsun apparently takes as a Dzogchen reference.
Seems a bit far fetched? Anyway, that's a different debate I guess.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Grigoris » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:51 am

Malcolm wrote:Well, yes. Dudjom Lingpa passed away in 1904. Dudjom Rinpoche was born in 1904.
If you believe in reincarnation and tertons, then it is the continuation of the same mindstream. So I do not differentiate between the two.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:03 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Well, yes. Dudjom Lingpa passed away in 1904. Dudjom Rinpoche was born in 1904.
If you believe in reincarnation and tertons, then it is the continuation of the same mindstream. So I do not differentiate between the two.


Apparently Dudjom Rinpoche is considered to have been Dudjom Lingpa's "mind emanation",
see: http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Dudjom_Lingpa.

I don't know if that means DR's mindstream is considered to have been the continuation of DL's or not. I've never really understood all this emanation business tbh. :smile:
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:02 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Well, yes. Dudjom Lingpa passed away in 1904. Dudjom Rinpoche was born in 1904.
If you believe in reincarnation and tertons, then it is the continuation of the same mindstream. So I do not differentiate between the two.


That is what you might believe. I am comfortable with the idea of reincarnations (whether tertons or not) of being very separate persons from their predecessors. And, Dudjom Lingpa had more than one incarnation.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby fckw » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:31 pm

"Same mindstream" - how can a mindstream really be same, equal or different? And what's the difference between same and equal anyway?

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Grigoris » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:That is what you might believe. I am comfortable with the idea of reincarnations (whether tertons or not) of being very separate persons from their predecessors. And, Dudjom Lingpa had more than one incarnation.
So? Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo has five types of emanations, with more than one in emanation of some of the categories.


Sku
Dzongsar Khyentse Jamyang Chökyi Wangpo (1894?-1909)
Gsung
Karma Khyentse'i Ozer (1896–1945)
Second Beru Khyentse (Beru or Palpung Khyentse) (1946-)
Thugs
Sakya Punpo Khyentse (1900–1950)
Dilgo Khyentse Rabsal Dawa (1910–1991)
Se Phagchog Dorje (1854–1919), a son of Togden Shakya Sri
Yon tan
Dzogchen Khyentse Guru Tsewang (c.1897-c.1945)
Nangchen Khyentse Kunzang Drodul (1897-1946)
Phrin las
Katog Khyentse Jamyang Chökyi Lodro (1893–1959), later known as Dzongsar Khyentse Jamyang Chökyi Lodro

Like you don't have a problem considering them seperate persons I don't have a problem considering them the same. Now who's view is correct is a point of contention that I am not really all that interested in.
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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:59 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:That is what you might believe. I am comfortable with the idea of reincarnations (whether tertons or not) of being very separate persons from their predecessors. And, Dudjom Lingpa had more than one incarnation.
So? Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo has five types of emanations, with more than one in emanation of some of the categories.


Sku
Dzongsar Khyentse Jamyang Chökyi Wangpo (1894?-1909)
Gsung
Karma Khyentse'i Ozer (1896–1945)
Second Beru Khyentse (Beru or Palpung Khyentse) (1946-)
Thugs
Sakya Punpo Khyentse (1900–1950)
Dilgo Khyentse Rabsal Dawa (1910–1991)
Se Phagchog Dorje (1854–1919), a son of Togden Shakya Sri
Yon tan
Dzogchen Khyentse Guru Tsewang (c.1897-c.1945)
Nangchen Khyentse Kunzang Drodul (1897-1946)
Phrin las
Katog Khyentse Jamyang Chökyi Lodro (1893–1959), later known as Dzongsar Khyentse Jamyang Chökyi Lodro

Like you don't have a problem considering them seperate persons I don't have a problem considering them the same. Now who's view is correct is a point of contention that I am not really all that interested in.


Definitely the view that they are not the same persons is correct since we do not believe, in Buddhism, in the continuity of personhood at all. If we do, we are making a mistake.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Grigoris » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:23 pm

Malcolm wrote:Definitely the view that they are not the same persons is correct since we do not believe, in Buddhism, in the continuity of personhood at all. If we do, we are making a mistake.
Sure. But this means that there is not "this person" either. ;) And yet here "I" am bugging the crap out of "you".

Anyway, you don't have to take my word on the matter, why don't you go ask your teacher? He's a tulku after all. I am 100% sure he knows a lot more than me about the issue. Or his son. He's also a tulku, isn't he?
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:28 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Definitely the view that they are not the same persons is correct since we do not believe, in Buddhism, in the continuity of personhood at all. If we do, we are making a mistake.
Sure. But this means that there is not "this person" either. ;) And yet here "I" am bugging the crap out of "you".

Anyway, you don't have to take my word on the matter, why don't you go ask your teacher? He's a tulku after all. I am 100% sure he knows a lot more than me about the issue. Or his son. He's also a tulku, isn't he?


ChNN has zero confidence in the tulku system, as a whole. He has mentioned this quite often. In any respect, I am perfectly capable of deciding for myself how to understand these things without needing to run to a Tibetan lama every time someone else has doubts.
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So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Grigoris » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:35 pm

Malcolm wrote:ChNN has zero confidence in the tulku system, as a whole. He has mentioned this quite often.
I wasn't talking about the tulku "system" I was talking about the fact that he is a tulku. Does he also doubt that he is a tulku?
In any respect, I am perfectly capable of deciding for myself how to understand these things without needing to run to a Tibetan lama every time someone else has doubts.
So, what's good for the goose is not good for the gander, coz 5 posts ago...

I will be chasing down the Big Red Book nonetheless, thanks for recommending it!
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:42 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Well, yes. Dudjom Lingpa passed away in 1904. Dudjom Rinpoche was born in 1904.
If you believe in reincarnation and tertons, then it is the continuation of the same mindstream. So I do not differentiate between the two.


Apparently Dudjom Rinpoche is considered to have been Dudjom Lingpa's "mind emanation",
see: http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Dudjom_Lingpa.

I don't know if that means DR's mindstream is considered to have been the continuation of DL's or not. I've never really understood all this emanation business tbh. :smile:

BTW, I had a look at this: http://about.tbrc.org/whos-who-in-the-dudjom-lineage/
and Gayley says that Dudjom Rinpoche was the body emanation (sku sprul). Does anyone know what the deal is?
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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:44 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:ChNN has zero confidence in the tulku system, as a whole. He has mentioned this quite often.
I wasn't talking about the tulku "system" I was talking about the fact that he is a tulku. Does he also doubt that he is a tulku?


He certainly did, for many, many years. And I am quite certain if you asked him if he were the same person as Adzom Drugpa, he would look at you very strangely. But you can try.

In any respect, I am perfectly capable of deciding for myself how to understand these things without needing to run to a Tibetan lama every time someone else has doubts.


So, what's good for the goose is not good for the gander, coz 5 posts ago...

I will be chasing down the Big Red Book nonetheless, thanks for recommending it!



I gave you a reference in a book so you could decide for yourself how to understand these things. I did not tell you to go off and ask Orgyen Tenzin how to understand these things.
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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:46 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:and Gayley says that Dudjom Rinpoche was the body emanation (sku sprul). Does anyone know what the deal is?


Quite honestly, is it very important at all?
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So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:47 pm

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:and Gayley says that Dudjom Rinpoche was the body emanation (sku sprul). Does anyone know what the deal is?


Quite honestly, is it very important at all?


Um, no, but is that the criterion for being worthy of discussion on this forum? :smile:
The whole purpose of Buddhism is to have fun, isn't it? - Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby BuddhaFollower » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:ChNN has zero confidence in the tulku system, as a whole.



Then why did he want his son to go to the monastery he is the tulku of?
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby krodha » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:54 pm

BuddhaFollower wrote:
Malcolm wrote:ChNN has zero confidence in the tulku system, as a whole.

Then why did he want his son to go to the monastery he is the tulku of?

Probably because it meant a great deal to the people of that region.

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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Postby BuddhaFollower » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:56 pm

I agree tulkus are merely metaphorical reincarnations, since there are instructions for anyone to be born as a tulku, multiple tulkus are selected for the same person, etc.

Thats obvious.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.


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