Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

manjusri
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Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby manjusri » Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:57 pm

Can anyone enlighten me on where Dzogchen stands relative to the Two Truths Doctrine? I have come across the view that there is only a "single truth" in Dzogchen? Moreover, did the historical Buddha teach some variant of the two truths? My understanding is that Nagarjuna based his doctrine on the words of the historical Buddha (Kaccayanagotta Sutta).

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby Malcolm » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:03 pm

manjusri wrote:Can anyone enlighten me on where Dzogchen stands relative to the Two Truths Doctrine? I have come across the view that there is only a "single truth" in Dzogchen? Moreover, did the historical Buddha teach some variant of the two truths? My understanding is that Nagarjuna based his doctrine on the words of the historical Buddha (Kaccayanagotta Sutta).


The two truths do not exist for Dzogchen. As the Soaring Garuda states:


    Since phenomena and nonphenomena have always been merged and are inseparable,
    there is no further need to explain an “ultimate phenomenon.”

And Mañjuśrīmitra explains that the two truths are the same:

    Therefore, because awakening and nonawakening are the same in terms of absence of characteristics, there is nothing to accept or reject.
    In accordance with that meaning, all those explanations
    of the nominal ultimate, the absence of arising and ceasing, sameness,
    nonduality, beyond thought, emptiness, the dharmadhātu,
    freedom from expression and convention, and so on are neither ultimate nor relative.
    If it is said, “This is the path in accordance with the ultimate,” that is relative.
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manjusri
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby manjusri » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:32 pm

Thank you Malcolm. So, generally, a Dzogchen teacher would not even teach this doctrine to his/her students?

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby Malcolm » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:38 pm

manjusri wrote:Thank you Malcolm. So, generally, a Dzogchen teacher would not even teach this doctrine to his/her students?



It is necessary for any discussion of the vehicles of cause and result.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

manjusri
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby manjusri » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:02 pm

A follow-up question: given that the two truths don't exist in Dzogchen, can one even say that there is a path to realizing rigpa or beings who attain it? How does one hold onto the Middle Way here without falling into nihilism?

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:28 am

manjusri wrote:A follow-up question: given that the two truths don't exist in Dzogchen, can one even say that there is a path to realizing rigpa or beings who attain it? How does one hold onto the Middle Way here without falling into nihilism?


When existence is not established nonexistence is not established and thus there is no nihilism into which one could fall.
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So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

Felix
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby Felix » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:43 am

manjusri wrote:A follow-up question: given that the two truths don't exist in Dzogchen, can one even say that there is a path to realizing rigpa or beings who attain it? How does one hold onto the Middle Way here without falling into nihilism?


If I can add (possibly superflously) to the above excellent replies, in ordinal mind there are no extremes, so no 'middle way' between extremes.

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby Felix » Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:45 pm

That should have read 'original mind'.. :emb:

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby tomamundsen » Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:
manjusri wrote:A follow-up question: given that the two truths don't exist in Dzogchen, can one even say that there is a path to realizing rigpa or beings who attain it? How does one hold onto the Middle Way here without falling into nihilism?


When existence is not established nonexistence is not established and thus there is no nihilism into which one could fall.

:bow:

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srivijaya
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby srivijaya » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:52 pm

manjusri wrote:did the historical Buddha teach some variant of the two truths?

To my knowledge, the historical Buddha never taught this. The sutta you mentioned kind of makes this clear:
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.015.than.html


My understanding is that Nagarjuna based his doctrine on the words of the historical Buddha (Kaccayanagotta Sutta).

As far as I can see it was his own interpretation, rather than the original Buddha's - unless anyone knows otherwise?

:namaste:

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby Felix » Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:07 am

Which 'original Buddha'?

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tomamundsen
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby tomamundsen » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:28 am

srivijaya wrote:As far as I can see it was his own interpretation, rather than the original Buddha's - unless anyone knows otherwise?


Do you mean Samantabhadra?

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Mkoll
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby Mkoll » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:36 am

srivijaya wrote:historical Buddha

Them's fightin' words on this DW, friend. Tread carefully.

;)
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby javier.espinoza.t » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:26 pm

manjusri wrote:Thank you Malcolm. So, generally, a Dzogchen teacher would not even teach this doctrine to his/her students?


Truly dzogchen -atiyoga- is not a doctrine. Since is not a doctrine, there is no "subdoctrines" nor any need for them.

There are only a few precepts and groups of methods related to those precepts, organized with specific purposes related to their specific application. Nothing else is needed in the conceptual level.

I'm no authority, nor hold any ultimate knowledge, but is evident that atiyoga has nothing to do with an idea nor a piece of paper. Maybe that's why a Rigdzin is needed hahahahaha

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:07 pm

As Thinley Norbu says in "Echoes":
If we follow a Lama who has wisdom mind, he will be able to introduce the fundamental nature without using any concepts, and without our having to think about it or become involved in any idea of it as anything at all. We will experience it directly. Without any concept at all, we will understand the Dzogchen view.
The whole purpose of Buddhism is to have fun, isn't it? - Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:14 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:As Thinley Norbu says in "Echoes":
If we follow a Lama who has wisdom mind, he will be able to introduce the fundamental nature without using any concepts, and without our having to think about it or become involved in any idea of it as anything at all. We will experience it directly. Without any concept at all, we will understand the Dzogchen view.


As Javier says, we need to meet a Vidyādhara. While there are many good teachers alive today, there is only only one living Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings. Everyone better meet him while they still have the chance if they are truly interested in Dzogchen teachings. Everyone one else can stick with their sadhanas, mālas, vajras, and bells.
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So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby Norwegian » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:18 pm

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:As Thinley Norbu says in "Echoes":
If we follow a Lama who has wisdom mind, he will be able to introduce the fundamental nature without using any concepts, and without our having to think about it or become involved in any idea of it as anything at all. We will experience it directly. Without any concept at all, we will understand the Dzogchen view.


As Javier says, we need to meet a Vidyādhara. While there are many good teachers alive today, there is only only one living Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings. Everyone better meet him while they still have the chance if they are truly interested in Dzogchen teachings. Everyone one else can stick with their sadhanas, mālas, vajras, and bells.

Agreed.

Please do as Malcolm said if you are interested.

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heart
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby heart » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:As Thinley Norbu says in "Echoes":
If we follow a Lama who has wisdom mind, he will be able to introduce the fundamental nature without using any concepts, and without our having to think about it or become involved in any idea of it as anything at all. We will experience it directly. Without any concept at all, we will understand the Dzogchen view.


As Javier says, we need to meet a Vidyādhara. While there are many good teachers alive today, there is only only one living Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings. Everyone better meet him while they still have the chance if they are truly interested in Dzogchen teachings. Everyone one else can stick with their sadhanas, mālas, vajras, and bells.


I think you limit yourself in an unnecessary way there Malcolm, in fact I know you do.

/magnus
We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.
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"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,
You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.
So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,
That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

-Longchenpa

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tomamundsen
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby tomamundsen » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:24 pm

Malcolm wrote: While there are many good teachers alive today, there is only only one living Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings.


While I have the utmost respect for Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, and have no doubt that he is a Vidyadhara, this is just silly. He is not the only one alive today.

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:26 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:As Thinley Norbu says in "Echoes":


As Javier says, we need to meet a Vidyādhara. While there are many good teachers alive today, there is only only one living Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings. Everyone better meet him while they still have the chance if they are truly interested in Dzogchen teachings. Everyone one else can stick with their sadhanas, mālas, vajras, and bells.


I think you limit yourself in an unnecessary way there Malcolm, in fact I know you do.

/magnus


You are missing the point, my friend. What I am saying is that people chase after this sadhana and that sadhana and miss the chance to meet a great master. There was once this guy who went to Nepal, and because he did not know who Tulku Orgyen was, missed a chance to go see him because he was more interested in Lamdre. I think you know who I am talking about.

M
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So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham


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