Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:28 pm

tomamundsen wrote:
Malcolm wrote: While there are many good teachers alive today, there is only only one living Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings.


While I have the utmost respect for Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, and have no doubt that he is a Vidyadhara, this is just silly. He is not the only one alive today.



Pretty much. Who else is there? Seriously. Note I said "Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings." I did not say he was the only person from whom one could receive Dzogchen teachings. Unless you have directly studied with him, it is impossible to comprehend just how vast and deep his knowledge and realization of Dzogchen teachings are and how completely different his presentation of Dzogchen is from everyone else.
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So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

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heart
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby heart » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
As Javier says, we need to meet a Vidyādhara. While there are many good teachers alive today, there is only only one living Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings. Everyone better meet him while they still have the chance if they are truly interested in Dzogchen teachings. Everyone one else can stick with their sadhanas, mālas, vajras, and bells.


I think you limit yourself in an unnecessary way there Malcolm, in fact I know you do.

/magnus


You are missing the point, my friend. What I am saying is that people chase after this sadhana and that sadhana and miss the chance to meet a great master. There was once this guy who went to Nepal, and because he did not know who Tulku Orgyen was, missed a chance to go see him because he was more interested in Lamdre. I think you know who I am talking about.

M


Ok, I understand that, but ChNNR isn't the only Vidydhara alive. I am very sure of that.

/magnus
We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.
~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,
You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.
So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,
That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

-Longchenpa

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heart
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby heart » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:
Malcolm wrote: While there are many good teachers alive today, there is only only one living Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings.


While I have the utmost respect for Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, and have no doubt that he is a Vidyadhara, this is just silly. He is not the only one alive today.



Pretty much. Who else is there? Seriously. Note I said "Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings." I did not say he was the only person from whom one could receive Dzogchen teachings. Unless you have directly studied with him, it is impossible to comprehend just how vast and deep his knowledge and realization of Dzogchen teachings are and how completely different his presentation of Dzogchen is from everyone else.


Different isn't necessary bad, in fact it can be a good thing.

/magnus
We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.
~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,
You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.
So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,
That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

-Longchenpa

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:00 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:
While I have the utmost respect for Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, and have no doubt that he is a Vidyadhara, this is just silly. He is not the only one alive today.



Pretty much. Who else is there? Seriously. Note I said "Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings." I did not say he was the only person from whom one could receive Dzogchen teachings. Unless you have directly studied with him, it is impossible to comprehend just how vast and deep his knowledge and realization of Dzogchen teachings are and how completely different his presentation of Dzogchen is from everyone else.


Different isn't necessary bad, in fact it can be a good thing.

/magnus



You have taken many teachings with ChNN. So you know what I am talking about. People who have not met him cannot really comprehend what they are missing.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

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heart
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby heart » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:07 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

Pretty much. Who else is there? Seriously. Note I said "Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings." I did not say he was the only person from whom one could receive Dzogchen teachings. Unless you have directly studied with him, it is impossible to comprehend just how vast and deep his knowledge and realization of Dzogchen teachings are and how completely different his presentation of Dzogchen is from everyone else.


Different isn't necessary bad, in fact it can be a good thing.

/magnus



You have taken many teachings with ChNN. So you know what I am talking about. People who have not met him cannot really comprehend what they are missing.


He is certainly special, with an unique approach. I love him very much, but he isn't the only one.

/magnus
We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.
~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,
You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.
So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,
That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

-Longchenpa

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

Pretty much. Who else is there? Seriously. Note I said "Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings." I did not say he was the only person from whom one could receive Dzogchen teachings. Unless you have directly studied with him, it is impossible to comprehend just how vast and deep his knowledge and realization of Dzogchen teachings are and how completely different his presentation of Dzogchen is from everyone else.


Different isn't necessary bad, in fact it can be a good thing.

/magnus



You have taken many teachings with ChNN. So you know what I am talking about. People who have not met him cannot really comprehend what they are missing.


So you recommend ChNN?
The whole purpose of Buddhism is to have fun, isn't it? - Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche

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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby oldbob » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:33 am

Malcolm's point is a good one.

When I think of the Dzogchen Masters who are no longer here, that I made the effort to meet: maybe they (in the timeless state beyond description, that they communicate by direct introduction) are Dzogchen, and their not being here in a temporary body anymore, is the two truths.

Perhaps this is the Doctrine of Dzogchen and the two truths!

So I echo Malcolm's advice - while you still can, make the effort to meet one of the old ones who is still alive and teaching!

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8917

Death is impermanent.

:heart:

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lelopa
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby lelopa » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:51 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Different isn't necessary bad, in fact it can be a good thing.

/magnus



You have taken many teachings with ChNN. So you know what I am talking about. People who have not met him cannot really comprehend what they are missing.


So you recommend ChNN?



:zzz:
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srivijaya
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby srivijaya » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:41 pm

Mkoll wrote:
srivijaya wrote:historical Buddha

Them's fightin' words on this DW, friend. Tread carefully.

;)

Hey! Okay, I get the message - don't beat me up guys! :tongue:

On the OP though, the Two Truths Doctrine differs from *ahem* other Buddhism on a fundamental point (can't speak for Dzogchen though).

Briefly, Two Truths postulates a mistaken grasp of phenomena (ie. inherently existing). It sees the solution to this problem as breaking this illusion and seeing the underlying "nature" of self and other, as being emptiness. Furthermore emptiness gets called the ultimate state, which is a bit odd when you consider it carefully. Emptiness being the absence of inherent existence, rather than a "state" itself. Even the formulation 'form is empty, emptiness is form', equates the two. Equivalents cannot have one ultimate and the other not - it's like saying one half is larger than the other half. Quite how much of the Two Truths overlaps with Dzogchen, I have no idea, so if anyone can chip in, that would be great.

Other Buddhism does not assign categories of existence or non-existence to self and other, rather the actual process of grasping is seen and relinquished as it happens. No metaphysics are involved or needed, thus the descent into release accords with reality. What need of doctrines when that which is revealed transcends all categories?

:buddha2: = Original Buddha btw (not the fat guy).

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:51 pm

srivijaya wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
srivijaya wrote:historical Buddha

Them's fightin' words on this DW, friend. Tread carefully.

;)

Hey! Okay, I get the message - don't beat me up guys! :tongue:

On the OP though, the Two Truths Doctrine differs from *ahem* other Buddhism on a fundamental point (can't speak for Dzogchen though).

Briefly, Two Truths postulates a mistaken grasp of phenomena (ie. inherently existing). It sees the solution to this problem as breaking this illusion and seeing the underlying "nature" of self and other, as being emptiness. Furthermore emptiness gets called the ultimate state, which is a bit odd when you consider it carefully. Emptiness being the absence of inherent existence, rather than a "state" itself. Even the formulation 'form is empty, emptiness is form', equates the two. Equivalents cannot have one ultimate and the other not - it's like saying one half is larger than the other half. Quite how much of the Two Truths overlaps with Dzogchen, I have no idea, so if anyone can chip in, that would be great.



There are no two truths since even delusion is an expression of reality.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

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srivijaya
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby srivijaya » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:15 pm

Malcolm wrote:
srivijaya wrote:
Mkoll wrote:There are no two truths since even delusion is an expression of reality.

Very much so.

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:21 pm

srivijaya wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
srivijaya wrote:

Very much so.



The classical notion of the two truths hinges on vidyā and āvidyā being different, the former veridical and the latter false. But in fact vidyā and avidyā are just opposite sides of one coin, or even avidyā has vidyā.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham


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