Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:18 pm

Fa Dao wrote:Thanks man..I knew that they represented the 5 elements, was just curious as to why I have seen so many different ones...they all had the 5 colors just not in the same order. Thought there might have been a reason why they were in different orders.


Yes, there are different orders of the colors. The one which we use during the Purification of the 5 Elements at the beginning of every practice is taken by Kriya Tantra as Rinpoche has explained many times, i.e. blue, green, white, red, yellow.
The correct order of the colors for Ati Guru Yoga is the following, starting from inside to outside: blue, green, red, yellow, white.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby asunthatneversets » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:22 pm

Dronma wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:Thanks man..I knew that they represented the 5 elements, was just curious as to why I have seen so many different ones...they all had the 5 colors just not in the same order. Thought there might have been a reason why they were in different orders.


Yes, there are different orders of the colors. The one which we use during the Purification of the 5 Elements at the beginning of every practice is taken by Kriya Tantra as Rinpoche has explained many times, i.e. blue, green, white, red, yellow.
The correct order of the colors for Ati Guru Yoga is the following, starting from inside to outside: blue, green, red, yellow, white.


Yellow is on the outside, earth rests on water.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:24 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:
Dronma wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:Thanks man..I knew that they represented the 5 elements, was just curious as to why I have seen so many different ones...they all had the 5 colors just not in the same order. Thought there might have been a reason why they were in different orders.


Yes, there are different orders of the colors. The one which we use during the Purification of the 5 Elements at the beginning of every practice is taken by Kriya Tantra as Rinpoche has explained many times, i.e. blue, green, white, red, yellow.
The correct order of the colors for Ati Guru Yoga is the following, starting from inside to outside: blue, green, red, yellow, white.


Yellow is on the outside, earth rests on water.


I am sorry, but it is not! :smile:
Please, check it again....


Image
Last edited by Dronma on Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Fa Dao » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:34 pm

Thank you all..very helpful. Hopefully I am not the only one curious about this.
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Mr. G » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:36 pm

Dronma wrote:The one which we use during the Purification of the 5 Elements at the beginning of every practice is taken by Kriya Tantra as Rinpoche has explained many times, i.e. blue, green, white, red, yellow.


This is what I've been going by as in the purification of the 5 Elements :shrug:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Bhusuku » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:39 pm

Dronma wrote:The correct order of the colors for Ati Guru Yoga is the following, starting from inside to outside: blue, green, red, yellow, white.

Really? It's not that I don't believe you, but do you have a reference for that? I always visualize it in the same order as in the Purification of the 5 Elements, since in the short thun booklet (german version) it's the only order that's mentioned, and in the actual explanation of the Guruyoga it only says "white A in a five-colored thigle". However, I was always wondering why all the pictures show the colors in the order that you mentioned...
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:45 pm

As far as I know, the order of the thigle's colours isn't really that important at all. Not during Guruyoga, in any case.
Last edited by treehuggingoctopus on Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:46 pm

Mr. G wrote:
Dronma wrote:The one which we use during the Purification of the 5 Elements at the beginning of every practice is taken by Kriya Tantra as Rinpoche has explained many times, i.e. blue, green, white, red, yellow.


This is what I've been going by as in the purification of the 5 Elements :shrug:


Yes, this is correct for the Purification of the 5 Elements.
But the order of the colors change depending on the practice. I don't remember now which transmission was, but I have received a different arrangement of the colors than the two I mentioned before.
Nevertheless, during Ati Guru Yoga the correct order is the one which exists in the cover of the Tun Book, which I also posted here. :smile:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sherlock » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:50 pm

I think heart's avatar shows the historical order -- it also corresponds with a real rainbow. It's the same as the purification of 5 elements but yellow and red switch places.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby asunthatneversets » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:53 pm

Dronma wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:
Dronma wrote:
Yes, there are different orders of the colors. The one which we use during the Purification of the 5 Elements at the beginning of every practice is taken by Kriya Tantra as Rinpoche has explained many times, i.e. blue, green, white, red, yellow.
The correct order of the colors for Ati Guru Yoga is the following, starting from inside to outside: blue, green, red, yellow, white.


Yellow is on the outside, earth rests on water.


I am sorry, but it is not! :smile:
Please, check it again....


"Earth rests on water, water rests on wind (or "air"),
And wind rests on space;
But space itself does not rest on
These elements of air, water and earth.

Just so, our psycho-physical components, sensory elements, and sensory faculties
Rest on our karmic actions and emotional distortions,
While our karmic actions and emotional distortions themselves always rest
On our distorted psychic activity.

This distorted psychic activity
Rests on the purity of our mind,
Yet the nature of mind itself
Does not rest on any of these phenomena."
- Uttara-tantra
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:10 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:
"Earth rests on water, water rests on wind (or "air"),
And wind rests on space;
But space itself does not rest on
These elements of air, water and earth.

Just so, our psycho-physical components, sensory elements, and sensory faculties
Rest on our karmic actions and emotional distortions,
While our karmic actions and emotional distortions themselves always rest
On our distorted psychic activity.

This distorted psychic activity
Rests on the purity of our mind,
Yet the nature of mind itself
Does not rest on any of these phenomena."
- Uttara-tantra



Asunthatneversets, the order of the colors of the 5 elements depends on the practice.
I am not going to participate in a discussion about that.
Everybody can ask for clarification from Rinpoche. :namaste:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Fa Dao » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:24 pm

It makes sense that the order has to do with the particular practice. With that in mind, there is the GY of the white A and now after the Longde retreat another one. (I wont mention the syllable but those that watched or do the practice know what it is) What, if any, is the difference between doing the two? (if necessary please PM me the answer)
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:40 pm

Dronma wrote:...the order of the colors of the 5 elements depends on the practice.
[/color]


Yes, you are correct: there are two systems.

The Thun system: space, air, water, fire, earth. (e yam bam ram lam)

The Longsal system (which is the classical order of Indian cosmology): space, air, fire, water, earth (e yam ram bam lam).

Also these very same seed syllables in the latter system are also found in precisely the same order in Hindu element purification practice.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Mr. G » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Dronma wrote:...the order of the colors of the 5 elements depends on the practice.
[/color]


Yes, you are correct: there are two systems.

The Thun system: space, air, water, fire, earth. (e yam bam ram lam)

The Longsal system (which is the classical order of Indian cosmology): space, air, fire, water, earth (e yam ram bam lam).

Also these very same seed syllables in the latter system are also found in precisely the same order in Hindu element purification practice.


If we're doing an Anuyoga practice, we would use the one in the thun?
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby heart » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Dronma wrote:...the order of the colors of the 5 elements depends on the practice.
[/color]


Yes, you are correct: there are two systems.

The Thun system: space, air, water, fire, earth. (e yam bam ram lam)

The Longsal system (which is the classical order of Indian cosmology): space, air, fire, water, earth (e yam ram bam lam).

Also these very same seed syllables in the latter system are also found in precisely the same order in Hindu element purification practice.


Thanks, but the tigle in dronmas post is space, air, fire, earth, water is that correct or not?

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:01 pm

Mr. G wrote:If we're doing an Anuyoga practice, we would use the one in the thun?



Yes, always the Ati Guru Yoga is the same, even when it is linked with Anuyoga practices.
In fact, the Anuyoga practices which we have in the Tun book are composed by various levels, i.e. Purification of 5 Elements from Kriya Tantra, A from Atiyoga, Yidam from Anuyoga, long dedication of merits from Sutra etc.
Last edited by Dronma on Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:04 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Dronma wrote:...the order of the colors of the 5 elements depends on the practice.
[/color]


Yes, you are correct: there are two systems.

The Thun system: space, air, water, fire, earth. (e yam bam ram lam)

The Longsal system (which is the classical order of Indian cosmology): space, air, fire, water, earth (e yam ram bam lam).

Also these very same seed syllables in the latter system are also found in precisely the same order in Hindu element purification practice.


Thanks, but the tigle in dronmas post is space, air, fire, earth, water is that correct or not?

/magnus


That Thigle was not made by me, but it is the official cover of the new Tun book which has been published by SSI with the advice of Rinpoche. :smile:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:07 pm

heart wrote:
Thanks, but the tigle in dronmas post is space, air, fire, earth, water is that correct or not?

/magnus


Yes, as it should be IN THE THUN SYSTEM.

LONGSAL is different.

M
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:09 pm

Mr. G wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Dronma wrote:...the order of the colors of the 5 elements depends on the practice.
[/color]


Yes, you are correct: there are two systems.

The Thun system: space, air, water, fire, earth. (e yam bam ram lam)

The Longsal system (which is the classical order of Indian cosmology): space, air, fire, water, earth (e yam ram bam lam).

Also these very same seed syllables in the latter system are also found in precisely the same order in Hindu element purification practice.


If we're doing an Anuyoga practice, we would use the one in the thun?


It depends: if you are doing an Anuyoga practice like Jnanadakini you use the Longsal system. If you are doing something not connected with Longsal, you use Thun system. The system used in the Thun book comes from lower tantras.
Last edited by Malcolm on Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Mr. G » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:10 pm

Gotcha! Thanks all!
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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