Dzogchen and Buddhism

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Pema Rigdzin
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

gregkavarnos wrote: There is a very similar practice of Chenrezig in a sadhana written (I guess) by Tangtong Gyalpo used by hundreds of Karma Kagyu Centers all around the world. The only difference is that they use the mantra Om Mani Padme Hum for purifying the six lokas. And no, it requires no empowerment, no secret initation, or anything. Anyone can do it who visits the centers. I'm sorry if this information makes some people feel less special, but it's a fact.
How would you knwo if it's similar if you don't know the practice I'm referring to? In any case, the point wasn't the supposed eliteness of the practice I mentioned--I'm overjoyed to hear so many people have access to such a practice as you've described. My point was that Dzogchen contains every practice one could ever possibly absolutely NEED and many that are just plain useful. It lacks nothing that one would HAVE to turn to any other vehicle for. Again, this doesn't negate the usefulness of making use of other yanas. The point of Dzogchen is to be free and do whatever will benefit oneself and others, not to become a snob and a diva.
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heart
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by heart »

Jnana wrote:Into how many pieces can you cut the sky?... The mind series, the space series, the instruction series, the external cycle, internal cycle, secret cycle, unsurpassed secret cycle, transcendent pith, crown pith, ultra pith -- all jockeying for position and claiming superiority over the others that preceded them. And then this gets projected onto every other Buddhist tradition as well. It's just another example of Buddhists with too much time on their hands more devoted to mental proliferation than to non-conceptual meditation.
:smile: good point!

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Kilaya.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Kilaya. »

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote: There is a very similar practice of Chenrezig in a sadhana written (I guess) by Tangtong Gyalpo used by hundreds of Karma Kagyu Centers all around the world. The only difference is that they use the mantra Om Mani Padme Hum for purifying the six lokas. And no, it requires no empowerment, no secret initation, or anything. Anyone can do it who visits the centers. I'm sorry if this information makes some people feel less special, but it's a fact.
How would you knwo if it's similar if you don't know the practice I'm referring to? In any case, the point wasn't the supposed eliteness of the practice I mentioned--I'm overjoyed to hear so many people have access to such a practice as you've described. My point was that Dzogchen contains every practice one could ever possibly absolutely NEED and many that are just plain useful. It lacks nothing that one would HAVE to turn to any other vehicle for. Again, this doesn't negate the usefulness of making use of other yanas. The point of Dzogchen is to be free and do whatever will benefit oneself and others, not to become a snob and a diva.
How would you know I don't know the practice you were referring to? By the way, I received the practice you mentioned ten years ago during my first retreat with Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche.
As for the rest of your post, I totally agree.
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Mariusz
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Mariusz »

Sönam wrote: We are not synchronized my friend!

Sönam
Why? I ask what is official statement because you warned it was only my personal :shrug:
Pema Rigdzin
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

Jnana wrote: The dzogchen teachings are... replete with the reification of bindus, vajra-chains, and so on, as inherently meaningful appearances.
You have no idea what you're talking about. At all.
Jnana wrote: Into how many pieces can you cut the sky?... The mind series, the space series, the instruction series, the external cycle, internal cycle, secret cycle, unsurpassed secret cycle, transcendent pith, crown pith, ultra pith -- all jockeying for position and claiming superiority over the others that preceded them. And then this gets projected onto every other Buddhist tradition as well. It's just another example of Buddhists with too much time on their hands more devoted to mental proliferation than to non-conceptual meditation.
Those teachings and categorizations are not the sky, one's real condition is the sky, so you've used a faulty analogy. And it just goes downhill from there. Not sure what you feel you're accomplishing by coming here to denigrate the Dzogchen teachings and the masters who have passed it down to us. And you're problem is that you view Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Nyingma, Sakya, Kagyu, Gelug, Chan, Theravada, etc as separate clubs to which one owes allegiance rather all of them being part of the complete Buddhadharma of all the fully realized ones. Nobody separates calculus from simple addition & subtraction and all the other forms of math as if it's not all facets of one complete system and gets all butt hurt if anyone tries to say that calculus or physics are more advanced than introductory algebra... Nobody who decides to become a mathematician decides to just tie oneself to one form of math, pledging allegiance to it and ignoring the fact that other forms offer other possibilities. But short-sighted people do this all the time on Buddhist chat boards and act like the different yanas or phases of Buddhadharma are independent, unrelated clubs. That is a sickness.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

Kilaya. wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote: There is a very similar practice of Chenrezig in a sadhana written (I guess) by Tangtong Gyalpo used by hundreds of Karma Kagyu Centers all around the world. The only difference is that they use the mantra Om Mani Padme Hum for purifying the six lokas. And no, it requires no empowerment, no secret initation, or anything. Anyone can do it who visits the centers. I'm sorry if this information makes some people feel less special, but it's a fact.
How would you knwo if it's similar if you don't know the practice I'm referring to? In any case, the point wasn't the supposed eliteness of the practice I mentioned--I'm overjoyed to hear so many people have access to such a practice as you've described. My point was that Dzogchen contains every practice one could ever possibly absolutely NEED and many that are just plain useful. It lacks nothing that one would HAVE to turn to any other vehicle for. Again, this doesn't negate the usefulness of making use of other yanas. The point of Dzogchen is to be free and do whatever will benefit oneself and others, not to become a snob and a diva.
How would you know I don't know the practice you were referring to? By the way, I received the practice you mentioned ten years ago during my first retreat with Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche.
As for the rest of your post, I totally agree.
Keep in mind I was responding strictly to Greg's comment to me.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by muni »

Dzogchen and Buddhism: In Dzogchen practice elaborating is falling back into ego clinging. In other buddhist paths we train mind.

I am sure Namkay Norbu Rinpoche is only talking for his students' awakening.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Sönam »

Often Namkhai Norbu offers an answer to our questionning ... to day, on his desk, he has the Ridak Chökhor ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote:To me it seems like a strange intellectual game trying to separate Dzogchen from the Buddha's Dharma.
/magnus
Well, it would be strange if that is what I was suggesting. But it appears that most people have not understood what I am talking about.

N
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by kalden yungdrung »

There is a very similar practice of Chenrezig in a sadhana written (I guess) by Tangtong Gyalpo used by hundreds of Karma Kagyu Centers all around the world. The only difference is that they use the mantra Om Mani Padme Hum for purifying the six lokas. And no, it requires no empowerment, no secret initation, or anything. Anyone can do it who visits the centers. I'm sorry if this information makes some people feel less special, but it's a fact

Tashi delek,

Purifying the 6 Loka' s is a preliminary inside Dzogchen and is called Kordo Rushen.
We know this as part of Bodhicitta which is inside Dzoghchen practice self-emanating.
So it is seen over Bodhicitta interelated and there is no difference between Bodhicitta and Bodhicitta?
Bodhicitta is developed inside Mahayana etc. but self-emanating within Dzogchen that would be the greatest difference i guess so.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by kalden yungdrung »

muni wrote:Dzogchen and Buddhism: In Dzogchen practice elaborating is falling back into ego clinging. In other buddhist paths we train mind.

I am sure Namkay Norbu Rinpoche is only talking for his students' awakening.

Tashi delek,

But don't we train the Mind / Rigpa in Dzogchen?

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote:
I totally agree, and it wasn't ChNNR that started this thread with a statement that Dzogchen contradict sutra and tantra.

/magnus
Perhaps you should go back and read the post that started this thread:
This is a very good question. I have been moving slowly toward the pov of view that for most people studying these lower yānas is a complete waste of time. Oh, it can be useful to study a bit of Abhidharma because it helps contextualize mandala practice, and Madhyamaka does help cut through intellectual proliferation, properly studied and absorbed. Studying a bit of Madhyamaka helps one avoid the pitfal of crypto-advaita.

Also places where Dzogchen differs from sutra and tantra will not be readily understood if one does not have at least some superficial familarity with them.

You don't really need to study all this sutra stuff to understand Dzogchen, and as far as Tantra goes, anuyoga is sufficient. On the other hand, also a practitioner needs to understands that nothing really limits their practice to so called "Dzogchen practice" -- anything at all whether from Buddhist or non-Buddhist sources like Yoga, etc., can be incoporated into Dzogchen practitioner's life. One can even participate in a non-Buddhist religion, if for some reason that is necessary.

I personally think one will understand Dzogchen much better if one is grounded in sutra and tantra, but no, it is not completely necessary to learn these things. Understanding the five elements, three gates, emptiness, and bodhicitta are about all one needs at bare minimum. That, and a realized Guru -- and those are in rather short supply.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:
I totally agree, and it wasn't ChNNR that started this thread with a statement that Dzogchen contradict sutra and tantra.

/magnus
Perhaps you should go back and read the post that started this thread:


I personally think one will understand Dzogchen much better if one is grounded in sutra and tantra, but no, it is not completely necessary to learn these things. Understanding the five elements, three gates, emptiness, and bodhicitta are about all one needs at bare minimum. That, and a realized Guru -- and those are in rather short supply.

Tashi delek,

Ok it' s sure your personal view. But if you confirm the better grounding and make at the same time a denial in the sense of unnescessary this does count for those who have had those experiences mostly like you and me and many others. The advantage from those persons would be to get guided others as quick as possible out of Sutra and Tantra, but so seen there are persons who follow those Paths and nevertheless they form as said before a part of Dzogchen Lineages.

Forgot to ask you what is in your opinion a Dzogchen Lineage and could you tell me if your Master is inside a Dzogchen Lineage ?

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by muni »

kalden yungdrung wrote:
muni wrote:Dzogchen and Buddhism: In Dzogchen practice elaborating is falling back into ego clinging. In other buddhist paths we train mind.

I am sure Namkay Norbu Rinpoche is only talking for his students' awakening.

Tashi delek,

But don't we train the Mind / Rigpa in Dzogchen?

Mutsog Marro
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Tashi Delek!
Well, a question for the master.

Dzogchen is master student. General teachings not. Sorry to be old fashion.
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by kalden yungdrung »

muni wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
muni wrote:Dzogchen and Buddhism: In Dzogchen practice elaborating is falling back into ego clinging. In other buddhist paths we train mind.

I am sure Namkay Norbu Rinpoche is only talking for his students' awakening.

Tashi delek,

But don't we train the Mind / Rigpa in Dzogchen?

Mutsog Marro
KY
Tashi Delek!
Well, a question for the master.

Dzogchen is master student. General teachings not. Sorry to be old fashion.

Tashi delek,

There can be 2 answers possible yes and no. Yes we train if we make progress and no if we have the result.
Maybe there is another possibility regarding training the mind.

Best meditattion = no meditation

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Mariusz »

Namdrol wrote: I personally think one will understand Dzogchen much better if one is grounded in sutra and tantra, but no, it is not completely necessary to learn these things. Understanding the five elements, three gates, emptiness, and bodhicitta are about all one needs at bare minimum. That, and a realized Guru -- and those are in rather short supply.
Yes, but with one exception: If you find this realized Guru who is not from Buddhism or Bon Religion. Good luck.
Last edited by Mariusz on Thu May 17, 2012 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Malcolm »

kalden yungdrung wrote: if your Master is inside a Dzogchen Lineage ?

???
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Jnana »

Pema Rigdzin wrote:And you're problem is that you view Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Nyingma, Sakya, Kagyu, Gelug, Chan, Theravada, etc as separate clubs to which one owes allegiance rather all of them being part of the complete Buddhadharma of all the fully realized ones.
Whatever problems I may have, this isn't one of them. I have no problem pointing out the bullshit that exists in every one of those schools and practice systems.
Pema Rigdzin wrote:Nobody who decides to become a mathematician decides to just tie oneself to one form of math, pledging allegiance to it and ignoring the fact that other forms offer other possibilities. But short-sighted people do this all the time on Buddhist chat boards and act like the different yanas or phases of Buddhadharma are independent, unrelated clubs. That is a sickness.
Again, this doesn't pertain to what I said. There are no sacred cows in the Buddhadharma, and no Nicene Creed either.
Pema Rigdzin wrote:You have no idea what you're talking about. At all.
It seems to me that you're the one who doesn't know what they're talking about.
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote: if your Master is inside a Dzogchen Lineage ?

???
Tashi delek,

Does it mean you don't know?


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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Andrew108 »

Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:To me it seems like a strange intellectual game trying to separate Dzogchen from the Buddha's Dharma.
/magnus
Well, it would be strange if that is what I was suggesting. But it appears that most people have not understood what I am talking about.

N
In the end you are saying that Dzogchen is THE buddhadharma. The best version. Genuine buddhadharma. In any case you assert that all paths are complete within it. That in order to be liberated that you only need study Dzogchen. That studying the 'lower yanas' is secondary or unnecessary for an understanding of Dzogchen and for genuine liberation. That the lower yanas make false claims whilst Dzogchen does not and so on.
Dzogchen for you is all inclusive - all paths in one - ecumenical - the highest - the best - the ultimate - genuine. To be a Dzogchen practitioner is to have the best karma, the highest value. Have I misunderstood you? This is what you are saying right? Because obviously the implication from your statements is that traditional 'conventional' buddhadharma does not have the same intrinsic value as Dzogchen.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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