Dzogchen and Buddhism

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Sönam wrote:Dzogchen is the object, the path and the fruit ... It "starts" on the base of realization itself, therefore there is no question of particular school, vehicule, culture, sect and so on ... is it not so simple?

Sönam

Tashi delek,

Yes you are writing it in an easy way, but are there no Dzogchen schools,cultures and "sects" who teach that kind of Dzogchen?

Some like patatoes and some like rice, i guess that' s here relevant. Also relevant is that the belly is getting filled herewith. :D

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Sönam »

Advertising about a product does not give any savor of the product itself ...

Sönam

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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Astus
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Astus »

kalden yungdrung wrote:Are there then "Buddhists", who have understanding or are willing to understand Dzogchen?
Forgot to ask you, what do you understand under:"can easily result in arrogance" ?
I think it is quite simple that those who are interested in Buddhism and those who consider themselves Buddhists have contact with Dzogchen. In fact, it is quite easy to get both teachers and books on Dzogchen in English and other Western languages, unlike several other Buddhist teachings, like Yogacara and Abhidharma.

What I meant is that people hear about hinayana, sutrayana, lower and higher tantras, but without actually studying them they are just told that those are limited teachings, theoretical teachings without practical application, and they don't lead to real enlightenment. So, without proper understanding, people will disregard them in contempt that whoever follows those are people of midiocre karma and intellect.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Mariusz »

kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek,

...Bon has its own Prajnaparamita bum and that is very extended, more than in Dorje Thekpa.
Madyamika a must which was pushed by Gelug, but that does count also for the other Tibetan Traditions.....
Geshes must be experienced with Madyamika.

...So i understood that some things in Sutra and Tantra can be very misleading because the right ultimate is not shown through the line of Teachings (Sutra and Tantra). But i must say that in Bon, Sutra and Tantra is always pointed out in Dzogchen as the top experience. This because Bon is a Dzogchen Lineage and Sutra and Tantra are secondary seen. But sure there are also in Bon persons who due to their Karma do practice only Sutra or Tantra and have no notion about Dzogchen.
Mutsog Marro
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Tashi delek. It is great the Bon in Tibet entered Buddhism, including Dzogchen, not only from Gelug. Buddhism is without bias. Just quoting "the Practice of dzogchen" p.109: In terma discovered by Guru Chowang: when Guru Padmasambhava was in absorption..Tibet controlled by Bon, was hard to spread Dharma ...he manifested as Shenhla Odkar. Terton Longsal Nyingpo said: Guru Padmasambhava saw Zhangzhung would be only tamed by Bon. He went there with the retinues of self-lights and spoke "My father is Trenpa Yeshekyi Namkha... opened the door of numerous teachings....
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Astus wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:Are there then "Buddhists", who have understanding or are willing to understand Dzogchen?
Forgot to ask you, what do you understand under:"can easily result in arrogance" ?
Tashi delek,

Thanks for your post.
Will answer between the lines

Mutsog Marro
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I think it is quite simple that those who are interested in Buddhism and those who consider themselves Buddhists have contact with Dzogchen. In fact, it is quite easy to get both teachers and books on Dzogchen in English and other Western languages, unlike several other Buddhist teachings, like Yogacara and Abhidharma.

What I meant is that people hear about hinayana, sutrayana, lower and higher tantras, but without actually studying them they are just told that those are limited teachings, theoretical teachings without practical application, and they don't lead to real enlightenment. So, without proper understanding, people will disregard them in contempt that whoever follows those are people of midiocre karma and intellect.

Here i do fully agree with you that one should have studied Sutra and Tantra to get some insight but also in case of the experiences. Besides that a Dzogchenpa does mostly behave as Sutra nevertheless his view is Dzogchen. It does not disturb at all a Sutric behaviour which is clearer to people then the crazy Dzogchenpa (in Kung Fu maybe the drunken man style) :D

So in the context of the gradual Path, is situated individual progress and is the savest way is indeed to start downstairs and reach the roof by the steps / stairs.

Indeed for a Dzogchenpa is Sutra and Tantra secondary but nevertheless known as very needed to get a good conversation with their practitioners (Sutra and Tantra).


Last edited by kalden yungdrung on Wed May 16, 2012 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Mariusz wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek,

...Bon has its own Prajnaparamita bum and that is very extended, more than in Dorje Thekpa.
Madyamika a must which was pushed by Gelug, but that does count also for the other Tibetan Traditions.....
Geshes must be experienced with Madyamika.

...So i understood that some things in Sutra and Tantra can be very misleading because the right ultimate is not shown through the line of Teachings (Sutra and Tantra). But i must say that in Bon, Sutra and Tantra is always pointed out in Dzogchen as the top experience. This because Bon is a Dzogchen Lineage and Sutra and Tantra are secondary seen. But sure there are also in Bon persons who due to their Karma do practice only Sutra or Tantra and have no notion about Dzogchen.
Mutsog Marro
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Tashi delek. It is great the Bon in Tibet entered Buddhism, including Dzogchen, not only from Gelug. Buddhism is without bias. Just quoting "the Practice of dzogchen" p.109: In terma discovered by Guru Chowang: when Guru Padmasambhava was in absorption..Tibet controlled by Bon, was hard to spread Dharma ...he manifested as Shenhla Odkar. Terton Longsal Nyingpo said: Guru Padmasambhava saw Zhangzhung would be only tamed by Bon. He went there with the retinues of self-lights and spoke "My father is Trenpa Yeshekyi Namkha... opened the door of numerous teachings....

Tashi delek,

Thanks for your post.

Yes Guru Rinpoche is the Son here of Drenpa Namkha. His twin brother is Tsewang Rigdzin
http://bonpo-arts.com/tsewang_rigdzin.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Drenpha Namkha is the Indian Dzogchen Teaching Cycle within Bon and the Yetri Thasel is one of them.

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Dechen Norbu »

Andrew108 wrote:
Fruitzilla wrote: ......is only valid if you agree with it for the "right" reasons. I.e. if you are an insider. Outsiders can be ridiculed and ostracised for their diversity and difference as usual.

If it wasn't so sad, it would find it funny.
True that.
You completely missed my point; it has nothing to do with being an insider.

Some of you guys are so eager to fight Namdrol's ideas or ChNN teachings/ groups, that you project upon us things we never said and things we never thought.
This is what is sad.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Dechen Norbu »

PVS said: Doesn't mean they cannot receive introduction and practice/benefit from it though.
I said: That's the point.
Astus wrote:Interesting. Although the nature of mind in all different schools are understood to be universal, and it is something quite easy to see, there is this idea that only one specific school/lineage has the actual methods to comprehend it, while obviously the teachings are known to so many. It is all right that there is an independent group of Dzogchen practitioners who don't want to identify with Nyingma, Bon, or any other school. But this ignorance of other teachings can easily result in arrogance that there is not a single Buddhist outside the Dzogchen group who has a proper understanding of the teachings that are actually found in their own sutras, tantras and treatises.
The point I was making is the bold statement, from PVS's post. The rest of the post is a different thing with which I didn't agree or disagree. :smile:
So the point is that direct introduction can be received without preconditions and become beneficial.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Andrew108 »

Dechen Norbu wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:
Fruitzilla wrote: ......is only valid if you agree with it for the "right" reasons. I.e. if you are an insider. Outsiders can be ridiculed and ostracised for their diversity and difference as usual.

If it wasn't so sad, it would find it funny.
True that.
You completely missed my point; it has nothing to do with being an insider.

Some of you guys are so eager to fight Namdrol's ideas or ChNN teachings/ groups, that you project upon us things we never said and things we never thought.
This is what is sad.
Except that if I said I was a catholic who had received a Dzogchen transmission and was remaining a catholic and not becoming devoted to Dzogchen would you really think that I had 'got it'?
Isn't it the case that you want to do the SMS course? Why do the course if it's o.k to have received the transmission and to be an outsider?
I'm asking in a polite way even though it seems like an aggressive question.
Also I'm not fighting Namdrol's ideas - just working through the consequences. As we must with any type of teaching.
Last edited by Andrew108 on Wed May 16, 2012 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Dechen Norbu wrote:
PVS said: Doesn't mean they cannot receive introduction and practice/benefit from it though.
I said: That's the point.
Astus wrote:Interesting. Although the nature of mind in all different schools are understood to be universal, and it is something quite easy to see, there is this idea that only one specific school/lineage has the actual methods to comprehend it, while obviously the teachings are known to so many. It is all right that there is an independent group of Dzogchen practitioners who don't want to identify with Nyingma, Bon, or any other school. But this ignorance of other teachings can easily result in arrogance that there is not a single Buddhist outside the Dzogchen group who has a proper understanding of the teachings that are actually found in their own sutras, tantras and treatises.
The point I was making is the bold statement, from PVS's post. The rest of the post is a different thing with which I didn't agree or disagree. :smile:
So the point is that direct introduction can be received without preconditions and become beneficial.

Tashi delek,

When there are no preconditions what would be then these (pre) conditions, seen from the other side?


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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Fruitzilla »

Dechen Norbu wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:
Fruitzilla wrote: ......is only valid if you agree with it for the "right" reasons. I.e. if you are an insider. Outsiders can be ridiculed and ostracised for their diversity and difference as usual.

If it wasn't so sad, it would find it funny.
True that.
You completely missed my point; it has nothing to do with being an insider.

Some of you guys are so eager to fight Namdrol's ideas or ChNN teachings/ groups, that you project upon us things we never said and things we never thought.
This is what is sad.
Bollocks.

I am in complete agreement with especially the points I quoted in my post, andI couldn't care less about ChNN's teaching one way or the other.
What I was commenting on was how Namdrols point of doing away with distinctions and celebrating diversity, which is a conclusion I made for myself years ago also by the way , immediately gets turned into making distictions ( You can come to this conclusion if you're from our group, not if you're from a different one ) and riduculing diversity ( snide remarks about Jax).

So please give me a reasoned refutation as to how this did not happen. Not an emotional statement about being out to fight either Namdrol's or ChNN's ideas (boohoo) , because that situation just doesn't apply.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Malcolm »

Andrew108 wrote: Isn't it the case that you want to do the SMS course? Why do the course if it's o.k to have received the transmission and to be an outsider?
Look at your language of exclusion.

But to answer your question, why do not do the course?

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Mariusz »

Namdrol wrote:
Mariusz wrote: Is the Shenrab Miwoche from Bon listed among the 12 Dzogchen Buddhas?

Not in the sgra thal gyur. But Tonpa Shenrab has been added to the 12 Teachers by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, where he has an equal position with the twelve mentioned in the sgra thal gyur
So what is the source or quote He did it?
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by kalden yungdrung »

NAmdrol wrote:
Not in the sgra thal gyur. But Tonpa Shenrab has been added to the 12 Teachers by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, where he has an equal position with the twelve mentioned in the sgra thal gyur
.


Tashi delek,

Could you mention the 12 / 13 names from that Dzogchen Lineage and their Lineage Holders untill today?

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Jnana »

Fruitzilla wrote:doing away with distinctions ... immediately gets turned into making distictions ( You can come to this conclusion if you're from our group, not if you're from a different one )
That's the flaw of the dzogchen meme. My hunch is that the Indian mahāsiddhas would have laughed....
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Malcolm »

Mariusz wrote:Tashi delek. It is great the Bon in Tibet entered Buddhism, including Dzogchen, not only from Gelug. Buddhism is without bias. Just quoting "the Practice of dzogchen" p.109: In terma discovered by Guru Chowang: when Guru Padmasambhava was in absorption..Tibet controlled by Bon, was hard to spread Dharma ...he manifested as Shenhla Odkar. Terton Longsal Nyingpo said: Guru Padmasambhava saw Zhangzhung would be only tamed by Bon. He went there with the retinues of self-lights and spoke "My father is Trenpa Yeshekyi Namkha... opened the door of numerous teachings....
Guru Chowang makes no mention of of Padmasambhava at all in his Great History of Treasures. He writes:

First: the two the supreme of all beneficial qualities, [5/a] the treasure of the true words of Bon emanations: the way the compassionate body came from the pure dimension of the bon nyid [= dharmatā] and the after the treasure of body, speech and mind arose, the way the teaching was spread, i.e. the way a treasure descends from a treasure.

First: the pure dimension of the bon nyid, completely free from falling into any parts or divisions was singular and unique, the treasure of the hidden Bon dharmakāya [bon chos sku] which has nothing to give up, appeared from pure activity to tame beings as the sambhogakāya Shenlha Wodkar [gshen lha 'od dkar]. The way his compassion was moved is that in general he thought of all migrating beings. Specifically, he thought of beings in Jambudvīpa.

Second: after the treasure of the body, speech and mind was produced, the teachings were widely spread. The way the treasure descends from a treasure is that in order to tame the the confusion of ignorance, the root of samsara, at Wolmo Lungring in the land of Zhang Zhung the hidden treasure of compassion arrived in the form of Shenrab Miwoche [gshen rab mi bo che, i.e. the supreme one of the Shen clan, the greatest of men]. The hidden treasure was concealed in a single intention by all the Tathāgatas in the mind of Shenrab, and he taught the nine vehicles of Bon.

Afterwards, Shenrab's words were collected by the fortune Bonpos and placed in a catalogue. The cause Bon tamed ordinary beings, and result Bon tamed intelligent beings.

The teachings were spread in Tokharistan, where people wear silk turbans, the land India and the border lands and also spread in dPur rGyal in Tibet and Bon was disseminated first.

The King was given the name as the Elder Brother of Bon because he made sure the teaching did not decline, and also he concealed the Bon treasures of cause and result in Zhang Zhung the temple of Shampo Lhatse. Furthermore, as they were spread in the mountain of white peaks in Oddiyana, the Chinese mountain Dru Dzin and in southern and northern Tibet, having concealed treasures which descended from treasures, the Bon texts were not destroyed, and the Bonpo’s became renowned.

Also I, Chowang, say that the profound teaching of Bon is uninterrupted.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Malcolm »

Jnana wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Dzogchen is for anyone who is interested, without any preconditions at all.
So is Buddhism.
Well, that is not really true.

Dharma is for anyone who interested without preconditions. Buddhism is a religion.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Bhusuku »

kalden yungdrung wrote: Could you mention the 12 / 13 names from that Dzogchen Lineage and their Lineage Holders untill today?
[/color]
Take a look here.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Namdrol wrote:
Mariusz wrote:Tashi delek. It is great the Bon in Tibet entered Buddhism, including Dzogchen, not only from Gelug. Buddhism is without bias. Just quoting "the Practice of dzogchen" p.109: In terma discovered by Guru Chowang: when Guru Padmasambhava was in absorption..Tibet controlled by Bon, was hard to spread Dharma ...he manifested as Shenhla Odkar. Terton Longsal Nyingpo said: Guru Padmasambhava saw Zhangzhung would be only tamed by Bon. He went there with the retinues of self-lights and spoke "My father is Trenpa Yeshekyi Namkha... opened the door of numerous teachings....
Guru Chowang makes no mention of of Padmasambhava at all in his Great History of Treasures. He writes:

First: the two the supreme of all beneficial qualities, [5/a] the treasure of the true words of Bon emanations: the way the compassionate body came from the pure dimension of the bon nyid [= dharmatā] and the after the treasure of body, speech and mind arose, the way the teaching was spread, i.e. the way a treasure descends from a treasure.

First: the pure dimension of the bon nyid, completely free from falling into any parts or divisions was singular and unique, the treasure of the hidden Bon dharmakāya [bon chos sku] which has nothing to give up, appeared from pure activity to tame beings as the sambhogakāya Shenlha Wodkar [gshen lha 'od dkar]. The way his compassion was moved is that in general he thought of all migrating beings. Specifically, he thought of beings in Jambudvīpa.

Second: after the treasure of the body, speech and mind was produced, the teachings were widely spread. The way the treasure descends from a treasure is that in order to tame the the confusion of ignorance, the root of samsara, at Wolmo Lungring in the land of Zhang Zhung the hidden treasure of compassion arrived in the form of Shenrab Miwoche [gshen rab mi bo che, i.e. the supreme one of the Shen clan, the greatest of men]. The hidden treasure was concealed in a single intention by all the Tathāgatas in the mind of Shenrab, and he taught the nine vehicles of Bon.

Afterwards, Shenrab's words were collected by the fortune Bonpos and placed in a catalogue. The cause Bon tamed ordinary beings, and result Bon tamed intelligent beings.

The teachings were spread in Tokharistan, where people wear silk turbans, the land India and the border lands and also spread in dPur rGyal in Tibet and Bon was disseminated first.

The King was given the name as the Elder Brother of Bon because he made sure the teaching did not decline, and also he concealed the Bon treasures of cause and result in Zhang Zhung the temple of Shampo Lhatse. Furthermore, as they were spread in the mountain of white peaks in Oddiyana, the Chinese mountain Dru Dzin and in southern and northern Tibet, having concealed treasures which descended from treasures, the Bon texts were not destroyed, and the Bonpo’s became renowned.

Also I, Chowang, say that the profound teaching of Bon is uninterrupted.

Tashi delek,

Here the story about Drenpa Namkha who did convert himself voluntary to the new Tibetan religion or tradition which happened about the 8th century. It is also stated below Guru Rinpoche and Tsewang Rigdzin all according Lopon Lak's interpretations.

He did convert himself to the new Tibetan relgion called Chos, because he could in that position better maintain his Bon Tradition.

Further has this Drenpa Namkha had several emanations after his first " birth " in Zhang Zhung. It are these emanations which makes this Drenpa Namkha so popular. We know also the name Guru Rinpoche in the Bon Tradition who did emanate during several times.

Drenpa Namkha is further the Master of the Indian Dzogchen cycle called the Yetri Thasel and the commentary on this Dzogchen cycle of teachings we call, the Namkha Truldzö’.

Mutsog Marro
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The Bön Indian Dzogchen cycle of Teachings:


The Yetri Tahsel (From Drenpa Namka)
By
Yongdzin Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche


The various manifestations of Drenpa Namkha:

Now it is better if I explain a little Namkha. I have often talked about this. There the same name, Drenpa Namkha. The first Drenpa Namkha lived in the very early times. From the heart of Dharmakaya has no form but we still say the heart — a white centre of a blue flower, to the very centre where happened in the country of Tagzig.

Then the A blue human being. His features are like this picture. He is called the first Drenpa Namkha of Tagzig. He is the very, very early one.

Then from that time there were another Drenpa Namkha, and the 5th one, the last one, Namkha of Zhang Zhung. It was his 5th emanation, reincarnation but not really; a manifestation, He was a prince of Zhang Zhung. His father was called Gyungyer Mukhö and his mother was called Chatsün Gungma and he was prince in the Ngari province in Zhang Zhung. He was the 2nd Drenpa Namkha, and we call him the Drenpa Namkha of Zhang Zhung. His colour is quite often blue because to when he descended from Dharmakaya to Tazig, the flower (he descended onto) was blue and so as a kind of sign (of this) he usually keeps the blue colour. That is the reason.

When he grew up, he married an Indian Brahmin girl called Öden Barma and they had 2 sons.
The first was Tsewang Rigdzin and the then a few minutes or maybe af ew hours later a brother called Pema Thongdrol’ was born. Or his other names are Guru Rinpoche or Pema Jungne. So those were the 2 twin brothers and Drenpa Namkha was the father of Guru Rinpoche and Tsewang Rigdzin. As they grew up, they both learned many things from their father, including many practices, everything.


Then their mother advised the younger brother — he was maybe a few minutes or a few hours younger, I don’t know — and, pointing to the southwest, said that he would find Kabje’8 there. So his mother Öden Barma advised him and said that in the future he would take this text and practice it. That looks like the Nyingma tradition. There, a text called the Kabje still exists; the name is the same as far as I know. So that is the story of Tsewang Rigdzin and Guru Rinpoche. Anyhow, that is the 2nd Drenpa Namkha.

As for the 3rd Drenpa Namkha, he was around when Indian Guru Rinpoche, a scholar and practitioner, was invited to Tibet in the 8th century. This Drenpa Namkha was the 16th emanation after the Drenpa Namkha of Zhang Zhung; he said there would be another Drenpa Namkha.

This 3rd one is sometimes called Gyerpung Drenpa Namkha. He was born in southem Tibet, we know the name of his mother and father, and his country was Dagpo in southern Tibet. The name of this place is still there, and the village is called Tsashö. That is all very clear. Some texts says that when he was 37 he became Guru Rinpoche’s pupil, although other texts say this happened when he was 47. Anyhow, at that age he became one of Guru Rinpoche’s 25 close pupils; that is quite clear. He was the 16th emanation of Drenpa Namkha of Zhang Zhung.

It is this 3rd Drenpa Namkha who is the author of this text — in fact, not only of this text, but of the whole commentary of Yetri Thasel, or the Namkha Truldzö’.

Tib. sTag zig, riag gzigs.
Tib. rGyung yar Mu khod.
Tib. Phya btsun Gung ma.
Tib. ‘Od Idan ‘Bar ma.
Tib. Tshe bang Rig ‘dzin.
Tib. Pad ma mThong grol
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Jnana
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Post by Jnana »

Namdrol wrote:
Jnana wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Dzogchen is for anyone who is interested, without any preconditions at all.
So is Buddhism.
Well, that is not really true.

Dharma is for anyone who interested without preconditions. Buddhism is a religion.
Well, "Buddhism" is just a designation primarily referring to the theories and practices associated with the Buddha's Dharma, and other related social and cultural accretions.
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