Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

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Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Virgo » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:04 pm

Is Sikhism based on/influenced by Dzogchen and/or Mahamudra?

First Sikh doctrine:

The Mul Mantra:

EK ONG KAR, SAT NAM, KARTA PURKH, NIRBHAO, NIRVAIR,
AKAL MOORT, AJUNI, SAI BHANG, GUR PRASAD, JAP, AD SUCH, JUGAD SUCH, HABHE SUCH, NANAK HOSI BHEE SUCH

Trans:

One Creator. Truth is His name. Doer of everything. Fearless, Revengeless, Undying, Unborn, Self illumined, The Guru's gift, Meditate! True in the beginning. True through all the ages. True even now. Oh Nanak it is forever true.

From the Holy Book, the Siri Guru Granth Sahib:

There is no mark, which sets apart
The Ever Changeless Light of hearts.
No caste or sect, shape, form or hue;
Imagination can't construe
His Greatness or His countless Names;
The King Who o'er the three worlds reigns;
A million Indras can't compete;
God's men and demons touch His feet.

The world's vast fortunes seem as weeds
Amidst the garden of His deeds.
Thus, by His deeds His Name is placed;
Breath of Wisdom, Grace of grace.
Even forests slim or small
In glades and glens repeat the call,
"He is Infinite and All ... Infinite and All."

I bow to Thee, Eternal,
Beyond death the Beauteous Form.
To the Merciful and Mighty,
O, I bow to Thee, Unborn;
To the One Who has no costume,
Who’s beyond all destiny,
Without treasure, without body, Indestructible is He;
Who is Nameless and cannot be named,
Who occupies no space,
Beyond karma, beyond dharma, beyond need of dwelling place.

O, I bow to Thee Unconquerable, the Stranger to defeat.
To the Fearless, Self Sufficient One, the One without deceit;
To the One Who has no color, no beginning and no end,
Who is Bountiful and Faultless, Far Too Great to comprehend;
O, I bow to Thee Who art but One and Thee Who many be.
Beyond earth, air, water, fire and gas, I bow my Lord to Thee ...
Beyond earth, air, water, fire and gas, I bow my Lord to Thee.

I bow to Him beyond all deeds, Who wears no special dress,
Who has no country, name or manner, the Desireless.
I bow to Thee Imperishable, Thee from sorrow free;
Beyond attachment, anger, pride, desire and greed is He;
To the One in need of no one, Who is worshipped in three worlds;
The Source of every treasure, He Who cannot be installed.
He Who’s free from all affliction, independent of all breath;
He Who organizes and destroys, Who is the Death of death.

O, I bow to He Who generates, the One Who can't be known.
The Source of passion, strength and grace;
I bow to Thee, Unborn;
He Who is the Supreme Yogi, far beyond all intellect;
He in need of no support, yet Who supports the ocean's depth ...
He in need of no support, yet Who supports the ocean's depth.

I bow to He Who has no caste, religion, faith or creed;
Sublime and All Prevailing Beauty, with no lineage;
The Countryless, the Garbless, Homeless, Spouseless, King of all,
Who dispenses death and mercy, He Who takes the shape of all.
O, I bow to the Creator, the Sustainer, the True Lord;
To the One Annihilator, low I bow to Thee Unborn;
To the One Who has no secrets, He Who is the Death of all;
The Creator of all beauties, their destruction and their fall.

O, I bow to the Sustainer, Omnipresent in all hues;
Who prevails throughout the universe, the Endless Well of Truths.
O, I bow to Thee, Immortal Lord, to Thee untouched by age;
To the Doer, the Forgiver, to the Fearless and the Sage ...
To the Doer, the Forgiver, to the Fearless and the Sage.

He Who is Every Occupation, no relations, no restraint;
To the kind and constant Husband, Aspiration of the saint;
To the Endless and the Infinite, the Love of every soul;
The Creator and Destroyer, bend thou low, this mortal coil.
Bow down to the Lord of Yogis, the Sustainer of the wife;
The Enjoyer of all pleasures, the Caretaker of all life.

He Who's kind and understanding, more impartial than the sea;
He Who dries up all life's fluids, O, I bow my God to Thee.
To the Bountiful and Fruitful, Who is not sustained by breath;
Who is Fearless and Desireless, He Who is the Death of death;
Who is Infinitely Gracious, Who’s within and out of me;
To the Only God whose Name is Truth, I bow, my Lord to Thee ...
To the Only God whose Name is Truth, I bow, my Lord to Thee.

I bow to Thee, O Virtuous, upon Whom all rely;
He Who lives in everyone, the One from Whom all shapes arise;
To the Moon of moons, the King of kings, the most respected One;
Unto He Who has no comrade, Hymn of hymns and Sun of suns;
He Who is the Dance within the dance, the Sound within the sound.
To the Music of all music, to the Current, I bow down;
To the One Who is the Hand and is the hand's Activity,
Who contains all forms, all maya, Great and Glorious is He.

The Dispute of all disputes, the Supreme Siddha of the verse;
To the User of all weapons, Mother of the universe;
Who is All-Supreme in wisdom, without lust and costume free;
To the Master of maneuvers, O, I bow my Lord to Thee ...
To the Master of maneuvers, O, I bow my Lord to Thee.

I bow to He Who cures disease, Who takes our daily care;
Present in both gods and demons, Who is Dutiful and Fair.
He Who knows all forms of cunning, the Embodiment of love;
Who bestows all life and charity, All Seeing Lord above;
To the Mantra of all mantras, Pure of fire and the Pure;
To the Jantra of all jantras, Conqueror of the universe;
The Immortal, Without Master, to the True and Blissful Form;
To the Tantra of all tantras, low, I bow to Thee Unborn.

O, I bow to He Who rules all wealth, the Brightest of the bright;
To the Seed of seeds, the Song of songs, the Form of dark and light;
To the Honored of all honored, without fear or mystery;
Object of all meditation, O, I bow my Lord to Thee ...
Object of all meditation, O, I bow my Lord to Thee.

I bow to the Bestower of all knowledge time and space;
To the Source of love, the Source of strength, salvation, bliss and grace.
He Who takes the form of passion, He Who takes the form of pain;
To the Harshest of the harsh, the Many and the One again;
To the Everlasting Sculptor Who is pleased with every mold;
The Embodiment of kindness, the Controller of the soul;
The Destroyer of the three conditions, future, past and now.

He Who is the Life of life, bestowing undestroyable power;
To the Battle of all battles, the Embodiment of peace;
The Unalterable Essence, Formless through eternity;
To the Righteous Lord of Indras, Who’s within and out of me;
Meditation of all meditations, Lord, I bow to Thee ...
Meditation of all meditations, Lord, I bow to Thee. --


By the way, Guru Nanak, the founder of Sikhism was said to have travelled to Tibet. (I also found some articles where the Dalai Lama said that he was a high lama?)

"Although the exact account of his itinerary is disputed, he is widely acknowledged to have made four major journeys, spanning thousands of kilometres, the first tour being east towards Bengal and Assam, the second south towards Tamil Nadu, the third north towards Kashmir, Ladakh, and Tibet, and the final tour west towards Baghdad, Mecca and Medina on the Arabian Peninsula.[12]

Guru Nanak crossed into Arunachal Pradesh and visited most of the part. First while going to Lhasa (Tibet) he passed through Tawang after crossing from Bhutan and entered Tibet from Samdurang Chu. He returned from Lhasa and went to the famous monastery Samye and entered Pemoshubu Menchukha in Arunachal Pradesh. He meditated for some time at this location. From Menchukha he went back to Tibet, brought the residents of Southern Tibet and got them settled in Menchukha. Thereafter through Gelling and Tuiting he proceeded to Saidya and Braham-Kund, before entering the state of Assam again. Guru Nanak is the founder of the Sikh religion." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Nanak_Dev

(P.S. please read everything before commenting. The research on Guru Nanak benig in Tibet I will post later, though the story is recorded in his Sikh bio)

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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:34 pm

Inflammatory and off topic posts will be removed.

Thank you.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby heart » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:40 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:Inflammatory and off topic posts will be removed.

Thank you.


I am sorry Dechen, it might not fit your ideas but it was exactly what my Sikh friend said. He said that his Sikh Guru said that if he wanted to know Buddhahood he could show him what that was and that there were still several levels before true enlightenment.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:45 pm

That's an acceptable rephrasing of the original post that contained an inflammatory comment.
It has nothing to do with the opinion of your friend.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby heart » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:32 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:That's an acceptable rephrasing of the original post that contained an inflammatory comment.
It has nothing to do with the opinion of your friend.


But it exactly the same things as saying that it is beyond the nine yanas, no? Also, my friend didn't consider himself Sikh he said his Guru said that wasn't necessary. So why would noticing the obvious parallels be inflammatory?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby dakini_boi » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:43 pm

I've also heard that Guru Nanak was considered a high lama in Tibet. In fact, at Golden Bridge, a kundalini yoga center in LA, they have a bunch of thangkas on the wall. . . one of them is of Guru Nanak!
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Virgo » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:17 pm

Thank you Dakini boy. Compassionately, I will share one article now, but the rest later on tonight.

The more I read the more I see that Guru Nanak was considered a siddha outisde of the punjab. Apperently, he is also an emenation of Guru Rinpoche.

I am not sure who this tibetan lama is but this is what he had to say about Guru Nanak and the Sikh religion:

By Tarungpa Tulku (As published in the Indian Express, March 6th, 1966)

"It gave me great pleasure when I was asked to write this article as I have wanted for a long time to say something about my impressions of the Religion of the Sikhs in India, and my connections with it. After my escape from Tibet, I lived as a refugee in India for several years, alongside so many of my countrymen. There I had the great good fortune to be looked after by a Sikh family, by Baba Bedi, his English wife, and their three children. While I was with them, I was able to visit many of the Sikh holy places and I was given hospitality there.

My interest in Sikhism is not only a personal one, however. In Tibet, Guru Nanak is revered as an emanation of Guru Padmasambhava. Many of our pilgrims visited Amritsar and other holy places which they looked upon as equal in importance to Buddha-Gaya. They always said that the Sikhs treated them with great respect and were very hospitable: " as our expression goes, they bowed down to their feet." It seems that the Sikhs really practice the doctrine of their religion; perhaps they are the only ones who give such wonderful dana to travellers.

Most Tibetans know that Guru Nanak visited Tibet, and the mystical ideas of our two religions are very similar. I have noticed that the Sikhs never worship images in their shrines, but that there is in the centre the book, the Guru Granth Sahib. In our tradition, one of the last things that the Buddha said was that in the dark age after his death he would return in the form of books. "At that time," he said, "look up to me and respect me." Just as we do not believe in mystifying rituals, so in the Sikh ceremonies, it seems that the people simply read and contemplate the words of their text, so that no misunderstandings arise.

I was interested in the Sikh symbolism of the three daggers: in Buddhism, a knife often appears as the cutting off of the roots of the three poison, greed, hatred and illusion. I was also very interested in the Sikh practice never to cut one's hair, as this is also the practice among Tibetan hermits and contemplatives. The most famous of these was Milarepa, who said that there were three things that should be left in their natural state; one should not cut one's hair, dye one's clothes, nor change one's mind...

Both Guru Nanak and the Buddha said to their followers that the real nature of the universe should not be limited by the idea of personal god and gods. Those who made offerings at their shrines should remember that the whole universe was the power offering offered before and to itself. ...

it is my wish one day to translate the Guru Granth Sahib into Tibetan..."

Again, I have more to share more later on.

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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Virgo » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:34 pm

"There is a beautiful Gurudwara known as "Pather Sahib" constructed in the memory of Guru Nanak, about 25 miles away from Leh, on the Leh-Kargil road, 12000 ft above the sea level.

In the late 70s, during the construction of Leh-Nima road, a large stone was found in the middle. The bulldozer driver tried to push and throw away the stone but it did not move and in the process the blades broke and the work stopped. The driver had a dream that night not to move the stone. He narrated his dream to the army officer who did not give any importance to it. When all efforts to remove it failed it was decided to blow it with a dynamite the next day. That night the army officer also had a dream not to remove the stone but he again disregarded it. The next day being Sunday he noticed that early in the morning several Tibetans came and started showing reverence to the stone.

On enquiring further he was told that this was a "Wax Statue" of their revered Lama, Nanak and it contained the imnprints of his shoulders, head and backside.......he was told that during the period 1515-1518 AD when Guru Nanak was returning back to Punjab through Srinagar, after travelling to Sikkim, Nepal and Tibet, he rested at this place. A woman came to him for help. It was her son that was to be sacrificed to a demon who lived on the hill. Guru Nanak consoled her and asked her not to send her son to the demon. The demon was infuriated and threw a large rock at the Guru which hit the back of the meditating Guru and stopped there. The Guru's body is believed to be imprinted on the rock. The demon felt ashamed and prostrated at the feet of Guru Nanak" http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Guru_Nanak_in_Tibet_Quotes
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Virgo » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:48 pm

"If you go to the Golden Temple one of the most interesting things you will observe are some Tibetan pilgrims
who come to pray there, bowing down at each of their steps. These people are Buddhists who may belong to one of
the numerous sects of Tibetan Buddhism, who regard Guru Nanak as Guru Rinpoche. Guru Padmasambhava brought
Buddhism to Tibet and they regard the Guru as a reincarnation of the precious one, 'Rinpoche'.There are
many teachings in common? the middle path of living, the importance of congregation called sangam/sangat, the
importance of meditation, the individual's responsibility for their destiny, even the archetypal images of
the warrior monk, in Gurmat the saint-soldier tradition. Sikhs equally have great reverence for Buddhist
teachers. It is a matter of no small pride that a Sikh escorted the Dalai Lama to India when he exiled Tibet.
Indeed, Punjab, the Sikh homeland, was formerly called Gandhara, the home of Mahayana Buddhism. This goes back
to a period when the Dhamma was revered by almost half the people of the world. "

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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby justsit » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:07 pm

From Wiki: "According to Article I of the "Rehat Maryada" (the Sikh code of conduct and conventions), a Sikh is defined as "any human being who faithfully believes in One Immortal Being; ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Dev to Sri Guru Gobind Singh; Sri Guru Granth Sahib; the teachings of the ten Gurus and the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru; and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion".[26] Sikhs believe in the equality of humankind, the concept of universal brotherhood of man and One Supreme God (Ik Onkar). "

Doesn't sound like this is based on Dzogchen.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Clarence » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:08 pm

The used to be a Sikh master in Tso Pema who would meditate all night in winter outside in just some cotton robes. Sounds familiar, doesn't it. Now, most Sikhs are rather scary on their motorcycles racing up the hills, screaming and drunk but I am sure they have some great masters as well. The ones with the swords look very imposing as well.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Virgo » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:09 pm

I've got more articles, with a lot more facts, which I will post later. I want to say though that I didn't know any of this! I had no idea Guru Nanak was seen this way in Tibet before today. I drew up the connection between the beliefs on my own and then found out Guru Nanak travelled to Tibet, etc.

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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Virgo » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:13 pm

justsit wrote:From Wiki: "According to Article I of the "Rehat Maryada" (the Sikh code of conduct and conventions), a Sikh is defined as "any human being who faithfully believes in One Immortal Being; ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Dev to Sri Guru Gobind Singh; Sri Guru Granth Sahib; the teachings of the ten Gurus and the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru; and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion".[26] Sikhs believe in the equality of humankind, the concept of universal brotherhood of man and One Supreme God (Ik Onkar). "

Doesn't sound like this is based on Dzogchen.

This is like reading a summary on the 4NT from wikipedia and thinking you understand all of what Buddhism is about. It just doesn't cut the mustard. :)

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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Lhug-Pa » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:15 pm

Best Shabads by far:

Bhai Joginder Singh

What I listen to the most anymore, really.







And their older Shabads are just as good if not better.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby dharmagoat » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:19 pm

Virgo wrote:This is like reading a summary on the 4NT from wikipedia and thinking you understand all of what Buddhism is about.

Justsit is not claiming to know all of what Sikhism is about, just enough to suggest that it doesn't resemble Dzogchen.
Last edited by dharmagoat on Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
May all beings be happy
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Virgo » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:23 pm

dharmagoat wrote:
Virgo wrote:This is like reading a summary on the 4NT from wikipedia and thinking you understand all of what Buddhism is about.

Justsit is not claiming to know all of what Sikhism is about, just enough to be certain that it doesn't resemble Dzogchen.

If you don't know what it's about (especially if you don't read their scriptures) and also if you have not received Dzogchen teachings on the Basis, energy, and so forth (not sure who here has or has not) then you cannot see any connection at all, of course.

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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Jikan » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:24 pm

There are surely great masters among the Sikhs, inclusive of the Radhasoami tradition.

I think we'd honor them best by letting them be Sikhs, just taking them on their own terms rather than attempting to make Buddhists and/or Dzogchenpas out of them.

As to the question of whether or not Sikhism was influenced by Dzogchen? The best evidence for this would be archaeological or textual, rather than a comparison of the tenets or the existence of some thankas in which Guru Nanak has been painted. I am told that EJ Gold owns a thanka in which Mickey & Minnie Mouse appear in yab-yum. Is this sufficient evidence to claim Walt Disney was a siddha?

***

The evidence would argue that Guru Nanak was a Sufi bhaul in the tradition of Kabir. That seems like the best context to understand his contribution. Sufis are great, too. On their own terms.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Virgo » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:28 pm

Jikan wrote:There are surely great masters among the Sikhs, inclusive of the Radhasoami tradition.

I think we'd honor them best by letting them be Sikhs, just taking them on their own terms rather than attempting to make Buddhists and/or Dzogchenpas out of them..

No one is attempting to turn anyone into anything Jikan. But as a Dzogchenpa I see a definite Dzogchenesque quallity to their belief systems, just packaged a little bit differently. I am not asserting that it definitely has to be the case, but pointing out the connection. Add to that that the founder visited Tibet and is considered an emenation of Guru Rinpoche in Tibet... and well, you have something very interesting, no?

Kevin
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Jikan » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:48 pm

:thanks:

That's cool. I think common ground & mutual respect are great virtues in short supply.

Which reminds me: I was once in contact with a Sufi shaykh in California who described Dzogchenpas as the Sufis of Asia (he'd attended retreats with ChNN).

So who knows?
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Wesley1982 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:02 pm

Virgo wrote:Is Sikhism based on/influenced by Dzogchen and/or Mahamudra?


I don't know - I've never met anyone who is a Sikh believer.
Last edited by Wesley1982 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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