Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme

Urgyen Dorje
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Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme

Post by Urgyen Dorje »

So, doing the Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme, it got me wondering about all these spirit provocations and uprisings and the like discussed on DW in various threads.

My instructions on this practice is that Riwo Sang Cho is good for these things, but talking to a couple mates who are students of //, they insist this isn't the case, and that I'm probably just pissing off Gyalpos, Nagas, Don and the like.

They said the same about other Sang offerings.

I am not familiar enough with the bestiaries of beasties to really know what to think.

Opines?
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Karma Dorje
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Re: Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme

Post by Karma Dorje »

Urgyen Dorje wrote:So, doing the Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme, it got me wondering about all these spirit provocations and uprisings and the like discussed on DW in various threads.

My instructions on this practice is that Riwo Sang Cho is good for these things, but talking to a couple mates who are students of //, they insist this isn't the case, and that I'm probably just pissing off Gyalpos, Nagas, Don and the like.

They said the same about other Sang offerings.

I am not familiar enough with the bestiaries of beasties to really know what to think.

Opines?
Who is "//"? Why would you listen to their opinion over those of the master you received the teaching from?
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
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Re: Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme

Post by Urgyen Dorje »

The master who taught me Riwo Sang Cho never got into the minutiae of the beastiary of beasties. I've gone through the Tibetan and it's not clear to me if gyalpos are covered.
Karma Dorje wrote:
Urgyen Dorje wrote:So, doing the Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme, it got me wondering about all these spirit provocations and uprisings and the like discussed on DW in various threads.

My instructions on this practice is that Riwo Sang Cho is good for these things, but talking to a couple mates who are students of //, they insist this isn't the case, and that I'm probably just pissing off Gyalpos, Nagas, Don and the like.

They said the same about other Sang offerings.

I am not familiar enough with the bestiaries of beasties to really know what to think.

Opines?
Who is "//"? Why would you listen to their opinion over those of the master you received the teaching from?
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Karma Dorje
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Re: Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme

Post by Karma Dorje »

Urgyen Dorje wrote:The master who taught me Riwo Sang Cho never got into the minutiae of the beastiary of beasties. I've gone through the Tibetan and it's not clear to me if gyalpos are covered.
You offer to all of the eight classes of beings. That is explicit in the text.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
Urgyen Dorje
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Re: Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme

Post by Urgyen Dorje »

Yes. Of course that's what the text says.

I was told never-the-less that the practice does not work for gyalpos. I'm trying to understand if there is basis for this, or somebody is talking nonsense.
Karma Dorje wrote:
Urgyen Dorje wrote:The master who taught me Riwo Sang Cho never got into the minutiae of the beastiary of beasties. I've gone through the Tibetan and it's not clear to me if gyalpos are covered.
You offer to all of the eight classes of beings. That is explicit in the text.
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Re: Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme

Post by Karma Dorje »

Urgyen Dorje wrote:Yes. Of course that's what the text says.

I was told never-the-less that the practice does not work for gyalpos. I'm trying to understand if there is basis for this, or somebody is talking nonsense.
Most likely nonsense. Who is saying this and based on what source?
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
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Re: Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme

Post by Urgyen Dorje »

Some mates who are students of ChNNR and other Nyingma lamas. They're on this gyalpo fixation.

Karma Dorje wrote:
Urgyen Dorje wrote:Yes. Of course that's what the text says.

I was told never-the-less that the practice does not work for gyalpos. I'm trying to understand if there is basis for this, or somebody is talking nonsense.
Most likely nonsense. Who is saying this and based on what source?
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Karma Dorje
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Re: Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme

Post by Karma Dorje »

Urgyen Dorje wrote:Some mates who are students of ChNNR and other Nyingma lamas. They're on this gyalpo fixation.
If they are fixated on gyalpos pro or con, doesn't that already speak to their lack of understanding of the issue? I wouldn't pay much attention to their opinions unless it is backed up by something I could verify ChNNR has written or said himself. There are lots of opinionated students. I think it is better to only pay attention to the masters one receives instruction from. The rest is just hearsay.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
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heart
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Re: Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme

Post by heart »

They do Sang in the Dzogchen Community, a Sang offering by Adzom Drukpa that you can combine with the serkyem for the eight classes (yes, all the eight classes). When Rinpoche (ChNN) taught this practice he clearly said that they first did the Riwo Sangcho at Merigar in Italy but decided to do the the Adzom Drugkpa Sang instead because it was shorter. So I think you're mates don't know what they are talking about.

/magnus
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Malcolm
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Re: Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme

Post by Malcolm »

Urgyen Dorje wrote:So, doing the Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme, it got me wondering about all these spirit provocations and uprisings and the like discussed on DW in various threads.

My instructions on this practice is that Riwo Sang Cho is good for these things, but talking to a couple mates who are students of //, they insist this isn't the case, and that I'm probably just pissing off Gyalpos, Nagas, Don and the like.

They said the same about other Sang offerings.

I am not familiar enough with the bestiaries of beasties to really know what to think.

Opines?
Sometimes Sang offerings can cause provocations rather than prevent them. But generally speaking, they are beneficial.
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Re: Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme

Post by pemachophel »

Loppon has an excellent point.

IME, It's important:

A) To understand what kind of yogic activities, as in the four activities, are best for different purposes and classes of beings. IMO, Riwo Sangchod is a pacifying and enriching practice, and Gyalpos usually need [over-]powering or wrathful [subjugation]. Although there is a dok-pa (reversal) in Riwo Sangchod, it is not very forceful. I say this because usually one is visualizing oneself as Guru Rinpoche in the form of Nangsid Zilnon, not one of His more wrathful forms. My point being that I would not go first to Riwo Sangchod for dealing with troublesome Gyalpos if this was the focus of my attention.

B) To be able to gauge the result of any of one's yogic activities. IOW, if something does seem to go as one thought it should/would, it is important to have some means for diagnosing why and what to do about it. Such as asking a Lama with some clairvoyance or divinatory skills to determine what is going on if one doesn't have these skills and abilities oneself.

C) To have a broad repertoire of yogic activities in order to address a variety of situations. As the saying goes, "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." Hence the importance of a full panoply of so-called (within the DC) secondary practices.

D) To have developed/accomplished some power to make one's yogic activities function properly. Typically this means having accomplished at least one mantra. Having accomplished one mantra, it is usually easier to accomplish others after that since, in order to actually accomplish a mantra, one has to have had at least some realization.

Just some thoughts. Sorry if I'm totally off the mark.

Good luck and best wishes.
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Urgyen Dorje
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Re: Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme

Post by Urgyen Dorje »

Thanks for the responses on this. I appreciate it.

I accumulate Riwo Sang Cho as a regular part of my practice. It's part of a way of mending samaya, along with ganachakra and other such practices. It's also a way of healing my place in the world. Much has happened here, and there's much to heal.

I am really not trying to deal with a particular gyalpo uprising or anything. As people have said, there are other methods for such things.
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Re: Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme

Post by T. Chokyi »

Urgyen Dorje wrote:So, doing the Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme, it got me wondering about all these spirit provocations and uprisings and the like discussed on DW in various threads.

My instructions on this practice is that Riwo Sang Cho is good for these things, but talking to a couple mates who are students of //, they insist this isn't the case, and that I'm probably just pissing off Gyalpos, Nagas, Don and the like.

They said the same about other Sang offerings.

I am not familiar enough with the bestiaries of beasties to really know what to think.

Opines?
From my own experience, If you keep the wood clean (no tar or potentially smelly substance on the wood), no rotton wood or wood that has bugs living in it, it's best to break the sticks by bending them not smashing the sticks by putting your foot on them, also not using gas to light the fire. Try to keep everything clean and fresh, try not to have animal products, even in the incense. Some teachers say that once the substances are burning on the fire don't continue to poke or prod the fire... but perhaps it depends on who is involved.

How to Perform a Simple Riwo Sang Chod Fire Puja Meditation Practice at Home
Venerable Khenpo Tsewang Dongyal Rinpoche
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3dLixodvxs

Here are some fire pujas and teachings I've enjoyed watching on youtube, there are many more there as well:

Garchen Rinpoche: Smoke Offering Teachings Part 1 (2015 Seattle Teachings)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68eZeWe45ek

Sangyum Kamala Rinpoche - Fire Puja (mentions medicine pill Nagas like)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6IQAHDqF4o

Sang Puja - A Cleansing Smoke Offering - Jan. 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS4QhgUSk08

Journey Into Tibet with Robert Thurman - Fire Puja on Mt. Kailash
(Robert Thurman does some nice English with the Puja)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3khqOrL0tAk

Padmasambhava's Pureland - Fire Puja
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6A-q-vQPPI
ngodrup
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Re: Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme

Post by ngodrup »

Given that the source of this is himself a rigdzin and it was used explicitly to remove
obstacles to the opening of a region in which there were terma. And, since this also is
a sublime dzogchen practice in itself, there should be no concern. However, it was advised
by Ahnam Tulku many years ago that Ri Wo Sang Chod *could* be followed by Seng Dongma
"just in case" some beings you wouldn't want hanging around, were still hanging around.
Capiche?
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Adamantine
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Re: Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme

Post by Adamantine »

FYI the current standardized form of Riwo Sang Cho, afaik, which includes the refuge, bodhicitta, and 7 branch offering with Guru Rinpoche visualization and mantra- was put together by HH Dudjom Rinpoche. The actual original terma just begins from the Ram Yam Kham -or so I was led to believe- if I am wrong I am sure Malcolm or Pemachopel will correct me. There's another method of opening the practice with one's yidam- such as Vajrakilaya - and accumulating that mantra (instead of the Guru Rinpoche viz, or even in addition to) then once the Riwo Sang Cho is finished one would return to the Kilaya sadhana and close that. One could also insert a dharmapala section within that, the way the 8 classes are inserted with the Adzom Drukpa sang in the DC.
In this case, if one is doing this sang with Kilaya and a protector practice, the Dok (reversal) section would be more forceful. And note that in one of those reversal lines it specifically references gyalpo. I've also been told that for clearing a residence of problematic etheric activity, it is good to do both sang and chod. Sang in the morning, chod in the evening =peaceful and wrathful pacification. Of course one needs wang lung tri and much practice to have any of this have an effect. A novice could actually get more problems (kickback) than results.

Also here's a quote from me from this parallel elder thread http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=4768:
Adamantine wrote:Please note that there is a two day teaching on all the aspects of Riwo Sang Cho including how to make the mother mix properly and much more, given by HH Dungse Shenphen Dawa Norbu Rinpoche and available to purchase on DVD found on the tersar.org website here:

http://www.tersar.org/yeshe-melong/

Scroll down and you'll find this "A DVD of a teaching by Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche on the Riwo Sang Chö is currently available upon request." You may have to email or call to arrange the details of acquiring it.
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Adamantine
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Re: Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme

Post by Adamantine »

Ok so here is what I assume to be the original text without any insertions on Lotsawa House's site http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... e-offering: It has the refuge, the bodhicitta and seven branch prayer but it does not include any yidam visualization of Guru Rinpoche or otherwise - nor does it include the Ram Yam Kam, sky treasury mantra etc. or dedication-- these were later added within Dudjom Rinpoche's arrangement http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... wo-sangcho. You can compare the two via these links.

For an example though if i've seen some people open with a Kilaya Sadhana that has it's own refuge and bodhictta, accumulate that mantra and then skip the Riwo refuge and bodhicitta and go straight to Ram Yam Kam. . . so they are using the Dudjom arrangement but skipping ahead to that part.. then including the Riwo dedication before returning to the other sadhana. Anyway that's one way to do things, though good to check with one's Lama about what is appropriate.
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme

Post by conebeckham »

The way we normally do it, in group morning practice, is to do NamJom and NamGyalma Zungs, then 7 Line Guru Rinpoche prayer--the longer one with empowerment, if you know it--and the Prayer to the Guru's 3 Kayas and a lineage prayer from Chogling, then Riwo Sangcho in the original form--without "Ram Yam Kham," etc. (Chopa Jinlab, Guru Rinpoche Dak Kye, mantra recitation) starting from refuge and Bodhicitta, going through the "Om Ah Hung" recitations, then requesting the benefits. We insert a short "Nga Sol-Lo" to Mahakala Chagdrupa, because we're Shangpa, after all! (LOL) and also a general request and offering to protectors--serkyem and kartor/martor offerings, as well....then we do a short 21 Tara recitation and dedication.

I've done it with the additions from HH Dudjom Rinpoche as well, depending on who I'm with and where I am.
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"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Re: Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme

Post by conebeckham »

..also, it's relatively common to add DeGye Serkyem in there, somewhere.....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
etinin
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Re: Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme

Post by etinin »

The original Riwo Sangchod is done in many different ways, with or without insertions. At Karma Kagyu, it is simpler than the Shangpa one, without the Guru Rinpoche visualization and without the offering to Mahakala Chagdrupa (probably because the Mahakala Bernakchen which is the main protector practice contains a Sur offering already). I have not checked, but the sadhana is probably the Riwo Sangchod root text only. I've done it with the Dudjom insertions when practicing at Chagdud Gonpa.
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Urgyen Dorje
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Re: Riwo Sang Cho of Namkha Jigme

Post by Urgyen Dorje »

Thanks for the information.

I was mostly just concerned because somebody from the forum had said my practice of Riwo Sang Cho was not legitimate.

It appears this lama K. N. was probably not correct.
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