What is the Dzogchen and/or Nyingma assertion of how conventional phenomena exists?

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Tenzintharpa
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What is the Dzogchen and/or Nyingma assertion of how conventional phenomena exists?

Postby Tenzintharpa » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:33 am

I am a Gelug practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism and understand Tsongkhapa’s view but am a little confused on the different views of conventional phenomena held by other schools of Buddhism.
According to the Dzogchen and/or Nyingma, does conventional phenomena:
A) Exist as Illusion, existing only as a projection of the mind, (literally unreal).
B) Exist as Illusion ‘like’; real but existing in an ethereal manner, lacking any inherent true essence; nominally existent.
C) Do Dzogchen and/or Nyingma deny the existence of conventional phenomena and/or matter?

Gelug presentation
The Buddha often described life as dream-like but he never asserted that life was a dream or that phenomenon did not actually exist.

Observed phenomenon don’t exist as mere images, projections or visions in the mind but rather exists as separate entities from the mind. The mind and matter are two separate things. Matter is separate from the mind that cognizes and dominates it. And although observed phenomenon are not simply created by a mind, their ultimate mode of existence is dependent upon the mind, so the mind doesn’t create the matter but the matter is dependent on the mind that imputes it as the imputer. Therefore, their mode of existence is separate from the imputer but their existence is dependent upon the imputer. Their mode of existence is separate but their existence is dependent. Nothing can exist independently from the mind which perceives it. ~ Dalai Lama

Thanks all,

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Malcolm
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Re: What is the Dzogchen and/or Nyingma assertion of how conventional phenomena exists?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:51 pm

Tenzintharpa wrote:According to the Dzogchen and/or Nyingma, does conventional phenomena:


According to the Dzogchen and/or Nyingma, conventional phenomena are apparent yet nonexistent, thus they are illusory, etc.
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Matt J
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Re: What is the Dzogchen and/or Nyingma assertion of how conventional phenomena exists?

Postby Matt J » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:16 pm

How is it that phenomenon are illusory dreams, yet not mind? How do they not exist from their own side yet are not projections of mind, either?

Malcolm wrote:
Tenzintharpa wrote:According to the Dzogchen and/or Nyingma, does conventional phenomena:


According to the Dzogchen and/or Nyingma, conventional phenomena are apparent yet nonexistent, thus they are illusory, etc.
The Great Way is not difficult
If only there is no picking or choosing
--- Xin Xin Ming

http://nondualism.org/

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Malcolm
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Re: What is the Dzogchen and/or Nyingma assertion of how conventional phenomena exists?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:31 pm

Matt J wrote:How is it that phenomenon are illusory dreams, yet not mind? How do they not exist from their own side yet are not projections of mind, either?

Malcolm wrote:
Tenzintharpa wrote:According to the Dzogchen and/or Nyingma, does conventional phenomena:


According to the Dzogchen and/or Nyingma, conventional phenomena are apparent yet nonexistent, thus they are illusory, etc.


Mind is also a clearly apparent nonexistent.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

bhava
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Re: What is the Dzogchen and/or Nyingma assertion of how conventional phenomena exists?

Postby bhava » Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:17 pm

In dzogchen and nyingma, conventional phenomena have allways been primordial enlightenment. One leaves analytical approach of "exist nor non-exist" far away, as it is the domain of conceptual mind. In the state of rigpa it your direct experience. Of course as upaya one can use any kind of analytical meditation, but real view completely transcends conceptual mind and its assertions.

Lukeinaz
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Re: What is the Dzogchen and/or Nyingma assertion of how conventional phenomena exists?

Postby Lukeinaz » Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:12 pm

bhava wrote:In dzogchen and nyingma, conventional phenomena have allways been primordial enlightenment. One leaves analytical approach of "exist nor non-exist" far away, as it is the domain of conceptual mind. In the state of rigpa it your direct experience. Of course as upaya one can use any kind of analytical meditation, but real view completely transcends conceptual mind and its assertions.


If conventional phenomena have always been primordial enlightenment and conventional truth is delusion then is delusion primordial enlightenment? Now I understand all the drinking and sex. Sign me up!
What a joy when the gentle rain comes on time.
What a joy when the crops ripen in the fields.
What a joy if bodhicitta were to be produced
in the minds of living beings equal to space.
-Khunu Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: What is the Dzogchen and/or Nyingma assertion of how conventional phenomena exists?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:52 pm

Lukeinaz wrote:
bhava wrote:In dzogchen and nyingma, conventional phenomena have allways been primordial enlightenment. One leaves analytical approach of "exist nor non-exist" far away, as it is the domain of conceptual mind. In the state of rigpa it your direct experience. Of course as upaya one can use any kind of analytical meditation, but real view completely transcends conceptual mind and its assertions.


If conventional phenomena have always been primordial enlightenment and conventional truth is delusion then is delusion primordial enlightenment? Now I understand all the drinking and sex. Sign me up!


You should read Rongzom's hook.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

Lukeinaz
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:34 pm

Re: What is the Dzogchen and/or Nyingma assertion of how conventional phenomena exists?

Postby Lukeinaz » Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Lukeinaz wrote:
bhava wrote:In dzogchen and nyingma, conventional phenomena have allways been primordial enlightenment. One leaves analytical approach of "exist nor non-exist" far away, as it is the domain of conceptual mind. In the state of rigpa it your direct experience. Of course as upaya one can use any kind of analytical meditation, but real view completely transcends conceptual mind and its assertions.


If conventional phenomena have always been primordial enlightenment and conventional truth is delusion then is delusion primordial enlightenment? Now I understand all the drinking and sex. Sign me up!


You should read Rongzom's hook.


Entering the Way?
What a joy when the gentle rain comes on time.
What a joy when the crops ripen in the fields.
What a joy if bodhicitta were to be produced
in the minds of living beings equal to space.
-Khunu Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: What is the Dzogchen and/or Nyingma assertion of how conventional phenomena exists?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:00 pm

Lukeinaz wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Lukeinaz wrote:
If conventional phenomena have always been primordial enlightenment and conventional truth is delusion then is delusion primordial enlightenment? Now I understand all the drinking and sex. Sign me up!


You should read Rongzom's hook.


Entering the Way?



Yes, that or the appearances as divine.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham


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