Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby WeiHan » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:14 am

Adamantine wrote:
WeiHan wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
And Riwo Sang Cho is really meant as a vast offering to all the realms of beings, if you just offer one stick of incense, it really is not so generous. Although, offering a single stick of the highest quality incense to one's shrine in the morning may be wonderful, when doing a sang offering if using incense sticks then you should not offer less than three so as to generate sufficient offering smoke.


Beside taking longer time to setup, the charcoal is actually more expensive than the incense or powder.

I find a website to buy very cheap incense but it has to be in bulk.

http://www.creativehandnepal.com/shop.p ... ct_id=3725

Looking at the low price compare to other shops, you can't help but conclude that middleman has strip off a huge percentage of the profit.


That is "Kur Sur" powdered incense, not "Riwo Sang Cho" mix. I am not sure why you think they are comparable, I thought I did a decent job of explaining the precious ingredients in Riwo Sang Cho mother-mixes, which obviously you would not find cheap, even if you made it yourself from scratch! Don't confuse it with other various types of powdered incense. Using the wrong substances for Riwo Sang Cho could bring opposite results than desired. For instance, I have a friend who was using some kind of incense powder from a Santeria shop in her home. Who knows what was in that. I noticed there were little plastic gold sequins mixed in. Burning plastic or other toxic-to-the-environment substances will only upset the Mamos and other classes of beings.....


All their incenses are much cheaper, not only sur incense. they also have a Riwo Sangcho incense stick which is much cheaper too.

And also, I have the impression that Sur powder contain all the ingredients required in a Riwo Sangcho offering. This is clearly explained in Zopa Rinpoche's teaching. And yes.. it contains precious metals like gold and silver.

http://www.lamayeshe.com/?sect=article&id=693

Shechen Monastery also offer a Riwo Sangcho incense powder which is sold at 150 rupees per bag (which is very cheap).
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby Adamantine » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:55 am

WeiHan wrote:All their incenses are much cheaper, not only sur incense. they also have a Riwo Sangcho incense stick which is much cheaper too.

And also, I have the impression that Sur powder contain all the ingredients required in a Riwo Sangcho offering. This is clearly explained in Zopa Rinpoche's teaching. And yes.. it contains precious metals like gold and silver.

http://www.lamayeshe.com/?sect=article&id=693

Shechen Monastery also offer a Riwo Sangcho incense powder which is sold at 150 rupees per bag (which is very cheap).



WeiHan, firstly, it is good to compare prices according to your capacity to afford what you can to offer. However, I would not get hung up on prices because ultimately this is an offering practice, --meaning it is important to do it in a spirit of generosity-- like, parting with your money with joy, for the benefit of all, not grasping at it, you know?

Secondly, on the website you linked to with the sur powder there is absolutely no description of it, what is in it, etc. It just say it is a traditional recipe but I, for one, do not know what "Kur Sur" is specifically, do you? Or does anyone else? In you link to Lama Zopa's comments on sur he does not mention the word kur once. Also, he says re: sur, that it is great if one can include the 25 ingredients, not that it is necessary for sur or that one will find it in a bag of cheap kur sur powder mix from Bhutan.

I emphasize to you that unless the incense you buy specifically says it is a Riwo Sang Cho mother-mix it is unlikely it will be loaded with precious ingredients. And even if it does say so, unless you get a confirmed good source you won't know if it is a lie or not.

I know this firsthand because there are many fake and counterfeit incense products being manufactured and sold in Nepal, India, and elsewhere. For instance, Dakpa Tamdin became famous for his high quality incense product, based on the recipes given by HH Dudjom Rinpoche. However, these days there are many counterfeit ones that use the same label. I bought one, for cheaper than I normally would from a different store and was shocked by the different color, width, and how much different it smelled. Then I found out it was fake from my Lama friend in Nepal who said these are notoriously counterfeited.

The second link I gave, the store Dharmaware, uses the real deal Dakpa Tamdin incense, I've gotten it there for years and know the people who run the shop. Similarly, their Riwo Sang Cho mother mix is authentic. There is absolutely no reason to have more confidence in a product because it is cheaper, in fact, I would be concerned it could be cheaper for a good reason: i.e., it is not authentic, or it is just a bag of juniper powder, nothing more.

Similarly I was buying very affordable sandalwood powder for sang, until I spoke with an essential oil manufacturer that assured me that all of that stuff was fake, wood pulp synthetically perfumed, and that this was 99% of what you get in India, or exported from India. Their sandalwood forests are endangered, so what do you expect? I since found a source for authentic sustainably harvested sandalwood powder, more expensive of course-- and it smells considerably different because it is actually the real deal!

Lastly, it is wonderful to make your own mix from scratch, however this is time consuming and it is likely you won't be able to get all the ingredients easily. There's many more than what I briefly mentioned.

Note: I am not saying the incense on that website you linked to is not pure and authentic. It very well may be. But it is best if you know the source where it comes from and can verify.
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:41 pm

After all this discussion on suitable ingredients etc... I am going to be a party pooper and say that the thing that is of utmost importance is the internal and secret offering. Not that the external offering isn't important, but I find it hard to believe that yogis living in caves in remote areas of Tibet had access to all the necessary physical ingredients all the time, yet they practiced because they did have access to the most important ingredient: their mind.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby Karma Dorje » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:43 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:After all this discussion on suitable ingredients etc... I am going to be a party pooper and say that the thing that is of utmost importance is the internal and secret offering. Not that the external offering isn't important, but I find it hard to believe that yogis living in caves in remote areas of Tibet had access to all the necessary physical ingredients all the time, yet they practiced because they did have access to the most important ingredient: their mind.


You obviously make do with whatever you have, but if you have the means there is value in gathering the substances the ritual texts specify. For most of us, that's not so difficult.
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby Malcolm » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:01 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:After all this discussion on suitable ingredients etc... I am going to be a party pooper and say that the thing that is of utmost importance is the internal and secret offering. Not that the external offering isn't important, but I find it hard to believe that yogis living in caves in remote areas of Tibet had access to all the necessary physical ingredients all the time, yet they practiced because they did have access to the most important ingredient: their mind.


Juniper grows everywhere in Tibet. Flour, honey and milk are available to everyone too.

Making sang substance is not a big deal.
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby WeiHan » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:29 pm

Actually, which is the text or which is the reliable source which list out all the substances in Riwo Sangcho.

Riwo Sangcho was given to Lha Tsun by Yeshe Tsogyal and that is the first text for Riwo Sangcho. At the beginning, it only stated "good wood,incense, medicine, white and sweet (substances), clean flour, butter, and so on,..."

So all other substances are really just later addition?
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:30 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:After all this discussion on suitable ingredients etc... I am going to be a party pooper and say that the thing that is of utmost importance is the internal and secret offering. Not that the external offering isn't important, but I find it hard to believe that yogis living in caves in remote areas of Tibet had access to all the necessary physical ingredients all the time, yet they practiced because they did have access to the most important ingredient: their mind.


Juniper grows everywhere in Tibet. Flour, honey and milk are available to everyone too.

Making sang substance is not a big deal.
Yes, well... everywhere and everyone, well...

Anyway, i was more referring to the precious metals and stones, sandalwood, silk material, etc... tsamapa, tea and butter were staples after all.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby Malcolm » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:32 pm

[quote="Sherab Dorje"

Anyway, i was more referring to the precious metals and stones, sandalwood, silk material, etc.[/quote]

You don't need any of this for Sang offerings.
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:34 pm

Yes... I do believe that is what I said about two posts ago. ;)
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby Malcolm » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:35 pm

WeiHan wrote:
So all other substances are really just later addition?


Yup.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby WeiHan » Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:
WeiHan wrote:
So all other substances are really just later addition?


Yup.


Hi Malcolm,

For a city dweller like me, life is hectic. Juniper or plants are not readily available. The best option is burning an incense stick for the daily sang practice. It is 100 times better than not practicing. I think different people have a different situation.

Oh yes...and i practice Riwo sangcho at night. Is there any issue? I only heard preaching that it is best done in morning but it was never said it can't be practiced at night.
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby pemachophel » Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:57 pm

Riwo Sang-chod can be practiced any time, day or night. I've practiced it with Tibetan Lamas in the late afternoon and in the evening.

"Don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good."

As you say, better to do it at night than not do it at all. And the incense sticks are just fine. As has been said previously, the most important offerings are those you generate by your mind. The physical offerings are only tokens. The main offering is Samantrabhadra (Bodhisatva's) Sky Treasure.

Good luck and best wishes.

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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby Adamantine » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:50 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
WeiHan wrote:
So all other substances are really just later addition?


Yup.


Hi Malcolm,

For a city dweller like me, life is hectic. Juniper or plants are not readily available. The best option is burning an incense stick for the daily sang practice. It is 100 times better than not practicing. I think different people have a different situation.

Oh yes...and i practice Riwo sangcho at night. Is there any issue? I only heard preaching that it is best done in morning but it was never said it can't be practiced at night.



I live in the city too and keep a small sang vessel (with lid)
on the ledge outside my window which the fire escape sits on.

That said, everyone's circumstances are different, sometimes neighbors
complain, etc. I've been sharing the POV of one of my
most trusted Lamas who practices strictly according to
Dudjom Rinpoche's instructions. That said, Dzongsar Khyentse has said (in an online podcast you can
check out) that you don't even strictly need any incense for Riwo Sang Cho, the
visualization is enough if you can't do the physical offering-- at least that's what my memory
says he said!)
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby Malcolm » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:13 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
WeiHan wrote:
So all other substances are really just later addition?


Yup.


Hi Malcolm,

For a city dweller like me, life is hectic. Juniper or plants are not readily available. The best option is burning an incense stick for the daily sang practice. It is 100 times better than not practicing. I think different people have a different situation.



Incense is fine as long as it is pure.
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there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby Malcolm » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:14 pm

Adamantine wrote:That said, Dzongsar Khyentse has said (in an online podcast you can
check out) that you don't even strictly need any incense for Riwo Sang Cho, the
visualization is enough if you can't do the physical offering-- at least that's what my memory
says he said!)



Correct.

And you do not even need to recite a lot of words, use a sang stuff, smudge stick, incense, and so on.

M
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http://atikosha.org
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby miranda » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:03 pm

From what I learned : For Sang puja, Riwo Sang Chö, any good quality tibetan or buthanes sticks is ok if you want to make it small, at home. If you make more elaborate preparation, any kinds of plants which have a good smell or a medicinal quality is ok, various kinds of flours, various types of grains (mix for birds) and are used for food, rice, dal, corn , wheat etc.....mainly white, and 5 colored related are good. Not too much of dark or black seeds, a little but not too much. Gugul,(which is NOT mhyrre) a little also but not too much. Better to use organic and raw products. What is forbiden is animal products (no mater for musk) like eggs, animal fat , so don't use manufactured buscuits . As for 3 white, don't use cheese (frsh or dry) which contains some ferment from animal stomach, only butter, milk, cream, yogoorth is ok. As for sugar , avoid white refined sugar which is made with black bone from animal, we call it here "black animal" which is used to make things white in food industry. Various type of organis sugar, melasse, syrup, are ok. organic honey also.
Natural frankincense, myhrre, benjoin, copal , is very good, you make it a powder and mix with other plants. Better not use ready made mix encenses used for churches or in esoteric shops. Be careful with indian incense , only the top quality, chandan, for exemple is ok , you can broke or cut in small pieces, and mix it . Avoid cheap ,commercial indian stuff which is full of chemical products.
If you want to put 5 colours cloths, use only natural like coton, avoid whool, synthetic, so no kata. which are generally synthetic. As for silk, I don't know, but due to the dead of animal necessary to get it, I avoid to put it in sang.

Don't use prepared sur incense for Riwo Sang Chö because there is some animal fat in it. Keep it in a separate place and use a separate Burning pot. This sur incense you can use during protector offering with regular or specific incense..

Shechen gompa used to sell both kinds of sticks sang and sur at cheap price.

If you burn something for naga puja, don't use any of these, and use a separate pot.

my 2 cents.
Of course for naga puja don't use any of these. And if you get special naga incense, burn it in a different pot.
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby WeiHan » Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:50 am

miranda wrote:

Don't use prepared sur incense for Riwo Sang Chö because there is some animal fat in it.



Is it because of the 3 whites and 3 sweets in the sur incense that contain animal fat?

But in the original Lah Tsun's Riwo Sangcho's text, 3 whites and 3 sweets are allowed substances in Riwo Sangcho.
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby miranda » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:45 am

No , 3 white and 3 sweet are ok for any kind of offerings. For Sur, there is usually fat from animals, that is not appropriate for the Riwo Sang Chö. For exemple the ready made sticks for Sur that is avaible from Shechen Gompa are not to be used for Sang. This is why they distribute also special sticks for Riwo sang cho. Be careful with all these things, and take correct instructions from a competent Lama .
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:20 pm

Which "competent lama" told you that you can use guggul in the riwo sang cho?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby miranda » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:58 pm

When I asked him if it is ok to use guggul in sang, he said "a little is ok". I came to understand he means very little among several kilos of other regular stuff.
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