Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby muni » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:18 pm

"We can be very busy by investigations of all misuse of Dharma expressions, or genuinely practice to be able to discern by the sword of wisdom".

A simple answer from a smiling young monk. :smile:

:smile:
We have to go beyond theories no matter how sacred they might seem.
Theories can create an illusory distance between us and enlightenment.
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby Matylda » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:09 pm

Yudron wrote: How many so-called lamas really unite knowledge, practice, and actual realization and have the personality and character to be a teacher as well?


Hmmm, I do not know... there were always dark times. And to reverse the question How many so called students are able to get knowledge, unite it, practice and actually realize it, and have personality and character of the real disciple???
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby Malcolm » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:23 pm

Kunzang wrote:If I recall correctly, back on e-sangha, Malcolm said that an acquaintance of his had attended a retreat with Namkha Rinpoche who gave a reading transmission of Dudjom's works (I don't recall which Dudjom) and Namkha Rinpoche came across the passage in question and was shocked.


This is correct -- this was in 2003 while I was at Merigar and a fellow from the Rigzin Sangha, Konchok, if I myself recall correctly, was attending a retreat at Merigar. He was the one who told me this.
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby Yudron » Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:58 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Kunzang wrote:If I recall correctly, back on e-sangha, Malcolm said that an acquaintance of his had attended a retreat with Namkha Rinpoche who gave a reading transmission of Dudjom's works (I don't recall which Dudjom) and Namkha Rinpoche came across the passage in question and was shocked.


This is correct -- this was in 2003 while I was at Merigar and a fellow from the Rigzin Sangha, Konchok, if I myself recall correctly, was attending a retreat at Merigar. He was the one who told me this.


About the Dudjom Lingpa sungbum, not the Dudjom Sungbum, right?

Well, this particular charge leveled against Ngakpa Chogyam is still hearsay and people can email Namkha Rinpoche and have one of his people ask him where the passage is, so it can be looked up.

In summary, this is a sad case of a stuttering child of abusive parents who developed delusions of grandeur to compensate. The specific self-invented story of tulkuhood and terma, accumulated years of practice in retreat, and so forth--and one could watch the process happen on his website, starting with the Mother Essence Lineage in the early 90's, growing into the Aro Ter, and becoming fully elaborated to it's current form by the mid 90's. Whenever he had an interactions a Tibetan lama, he used whatever little gift he was given or kind words to confirm his exalted status, and if the lama criticized him he twisted it to make it in to a joke or a display of crazy wisdom meaning something else entirely. He does not know Tibetan, so he was dependent on poor translators in those discussions with lamas in the 70's and 80's.

Now he has been a teacher for about 20 years, and he has a small group of committed students who really love him and support him. I think he really gives them lots of support, too. It's not a growing enterprise, really, just his websites proliferate--the same small number come to see him here in California who always did. I have never heard any of his students having complaints against him, and --unlike an actual cult--they are truly free to go when they want to. As one Tibetan lama said to me, "they recite the seven line prayer, that's really good!" Of the large group of self-invented Rinpoche's, he's really viewed by the lamas who have met him as a relatively harmless one, and very entertaining. Remember the Chinese dudes like "Dorje Change Buddha III" and "Grand Master Lu"? -- this guy is small potatoes compared to them. You should see their centers in the Bay Area! Although I know it's especially tough for genuine students of Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje, and CR Lama, who actually followed their lama's instructions and maintained good samaya with them, personally I think it's better to leave Ngakpa Chogyam and his students alone.
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby Malcolm » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:01 pm

Yudron wrote:...personally I think it's better to leave Ngakpa Chogyam and his students alone.


I could really care less anymore, I have no interest in hounding them at all. I was merely confirming what was reported.

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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby Yudron » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:23 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Yudron wrote:...personally I think it's better to leave Ngakpa Chogyam and his students alone.


I could really care less anymore, I have no interest in hounding them at all. I was merely confirming what was reported.

M


Yeah, I noticed.
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby pemachophel » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:55 pm

Back to the original intent of this thread, a friend of mine has been studying with a terton in Kham for several years now. However, due to fears about Chinese repression, I can't reveal His name. This same friend has a friend in Switzerland who has also studied with a terton in Arunachal Pradesh.
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:56 pm

Yudron wrote:Although I know it's especially tough for genuine students of Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje, and CR Lama, who actually followed their lama's instructions and maintained good samaya with them, personally I think it's better to leave Ngakpa Chogyam and his students alone.


I don't have the impression that anyone of Chhimed Rigdzin Rinpoche's students, including myself, has any negative feelings towards Ngakpa Chogyam. But when this topic comes up, it's important to speak the truth. People who investigate the Aro Ter because they feel attracted by Chogyam and consider becoming his students must have a chance to hear both sides of the story before they make their decision.

Btw both Chogyam and Rigdzin Dorje voluntarily keep the number of their students small. It is their concept of a responsible student-teacher relationship that a teacher can only give his students an intense supervision and mentoring when he is in close personal contact with them. They give public courses (or, at least Rigdzin Dorje does, not sure about Chogyam) open for everyone. But the advanced courses are for their "apprentices" only. To become an "apprentice" ppl need to fill out an application form (!) and they also have to give a monthly donation to their Lama. In exchange they get a very intense student-teacher relationship. At least Chogyam could have a lot more students - during the 90ties I heard there was a pretty long waiting list for ppl who wanted to become his apprentice. I don't think that has changed.

Obviously Chogyam has a lot of idealistic and positive attitude, too, and he's not mainly after the money - otherwise he wouldn't strictly limit the number of his students.
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby dzoki » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:43 pm

Yudron wrote: or khenpos who have memorized lots of texts but have not brought their practice to completion


This would still be a very high standard of Khenpo (that is khenpo as the acharya, not the upadhyaya). The present young Khenpos don´t even memorise their texts (true especially in India, not so much in Tibet). If they are good they know which text the quote comes from and maybe they even know the page, but it is very rare that they would know the texts by heart, senior Khenpos still have this, but it will not take long before they disappear.

To the topic: yes it seems that recently there is a surge of tertons in Tibet, who knows how many of them are geunine. There are several tertons teaching outside Tibet too:
Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
Namkha Drime Rinpoche
Zichen Bairo Rinpoche
Garnor Rinpoche
Yonge Kakhyab Rinpoche (I heard he is a terton, but I don´t have clue what is his terma)
Tsike Chokling Rinpoche

any other?
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby Yudron » Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:21 am

dzoki wrote:
Yudron wrote: or khenpos who have memorized lots of texts but have not brought their practice to completion


This would still be a very high standard of Khenpo (that is khenpo as the acharya, not the upadhyaya). The present young Khenpos don´t even memorise their texts (true especially in India, not so much in Tibet). If they are good they know which text the quote comes from and maybe they even know the page, but it is very rare that they would know the texts by heart, senior Khenpos still have this, but it will not take long before they disappear.

To the topic: yes it seems that recently there is a surge of tertons in Tibet, who knows how many of them are geunine. There are several tertons teaching outside Tibet too:
Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
Namkha Drime Rinpoche
Zichen Bairo Rinpoche
Garnor Rinpoche
Yonge Kakhyab Rinpoche (I heard he is a terton, but I don´t have clue what is his terma)
Tsike Chokling Rinpoche

any other?


Good to know about the young khenpos. I thought they still learned by rote.

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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby ngodrup » Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:35 am

The thing that bothers me about the authenticity question, with regard to these Westerners,
is the absolute certainty with which some people denounce them. It's not a question. The
door is shut, locked, sealed... mind made up.

I'm not an Aro disciple, but I have met them on several occasions.

Frankly having met them, I find it hard to associate the allegations of fraud with them.
And as I asked before, why would they recommend traditional Tibetan Lamas to certain
individuals coming to them for apprenticeship, rather than themselves? I know people who
were 'sent' elsewhere. As to the matter of being a terton, I know the story. I took it to mean
that he was a terton. I made reference to that in his presence once, and he was quick to deny
it, by saying "I'm not a terton." I still think that the naysayers have never actually met them.
At the very least he fits the model of a "boy scout" -- you know helpful, friendly, kind....

So then for me the question is what if they are authentic? What harm is there in denouncing
genuine lamas? Just because we are not omniscient, and cannot always recognize qualities...
Better to err on the side of caution, leaving the question open ended. I remember, HH DL
pointing out that since ordinary beings cannot recognize a Bodhisattva, it behooves us to
treat people as if they are. (...or at least not curse them.)

Well, just my two cents.
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:30 am

I've never met Ngakpa Chogyam, but I've participated in two weekend courses with Rigdzin Dorje years ago, before I have met Chhimed Rigdzin Rinpoche. On an intellectual level his teachings were very good. And I've read some of Chogyam's books. I found them very inspiring. After all Ngakpa Chogyam has been a student of Chhimed Rigdzin Rinpoche's for some years before he decided to do his own thing.

Nobody says that they're all bad. They surely have a lot of qualities. But that doesn't mean that they're authentic. If they would stick to authentic practices like the 7-lines prayer to Guru Rinpoche and so on, the whole thing wouldn't be so problematic. But they give initiations into deities and practices nobody else has ever heard of, and if these are not mind termas they have to be a product of somebody's phantasy, which means at best people who dedicate their entire life to the recitation of those Mantras are wasting their precious human life for nothing.
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:33 am

ngodrup wrote:So then for me the question is what if they are authentic?


If they were authentic, they'd have credentials. But they don't.
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby ngodrup » Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:03 am

"... which means at best people who dedicate their entire life to the recitation of those Mantras
are wasting their precious human life for nothing."

Or prostrating to a dog's tooth.

I cannot say if they have credentials or not. Verbal authorization does happen.

I cannot say that nobody's ever heard of, for example, a deity called Orgyen Dzambala,
Pemasattva Yab-yum or Garuda. That would be an exaggeration.

Enough said. Point made. I'm happy if people just leave it a little open-ended.
Qualified Tibetan Lamas have written nice things about Ngakpa Chogyam, and said
nice things. I know these Lamas. I think Yudron's right in that Tibetans are much more
concerned about other people than these.
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:30 am

let's just agree to disagree. :smile:


anyway, if somebody likes to read the old E-Sangha stuff on flaming jewel and Aro Ter, I have managed to find these documents on my old notebook:

E-sangha on Aro gTer.pdf
(208.82 KiB) Downloaded 102 times


E-sangha_ Flaming Jewel sangha.pdf
(490 KiB) Downloaded 79 times
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby username » Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:36 am

One must avoid false tertons who are reincarnated long term enemies of Padmasambhava and Yeshe Tsogyal who:

1- Tell some people they are not tertons. But tell others they are tertons as we see by themselves openly as well as their aides.

2- Make up funny combination deities and fake tantric figures corrupting vajrayana as prophesied by Padmasambhava for the degenerate age by the worst spirits around.

3- Who break samaya with great gurus that they use for publicity and fund raising in order to buy property in various continents for themselves.

4- Who were banished by those dead gurus that initially hoped to correct them, that now they use for publicity, who told them to stop their teachings and false claims before being banished.

5- Who make up fake lineages that no lama or academic accepts as real.

As the Tulku Thondup's passage shows, major fake tertons do not make up their terma. It is channeled by demonic beings who are the major enemies of Guru Rinpoche. Anyone following such figures should know the secret dimensions of these matters are great disasters that will affect one through many lifetimes. The outer dimensions of great power and great money as signs of importance/danger/concern are only definitive values for worldly persons, not the essence of great malevolent beings most of whose types are not outwardly visible to humans. Any reassurance or appeasement by those who have made tragic positive karmic connections and/or intentional aspirations towards fake tertons' mandalas should be regarded as dangerous naive advice. Sanitizing the following of a fake terton, enemy of Guru Rinpoche, as admitted shows imbalance and should be dismissed.

Vajrayana is not for everyone. These invented fake tantric figures, deities, terma, practices and lineages is how Vajrayana was prophesied to be attacked and degenerated. Vajrayana states one should deeply investigate a teacher before committing. Ignore reassurances that oppose such Vajrayana tenets, lineages, valid deities, etc. as they are not your friends but only leading one to the abyss of many lifetimes' downfalls and unnecessary great suffering. Investigate through the families of any dead guru being used for publicity about banishment of fake tertons. There are many valid lamas to follow and the best way to salvation from fake tertons' ever expanding webs is through genuine gurus and ultimately Guru Rinpoche himself.

"False Termas: Reverse Effect of Practice of Some Termas:
The reason contrary and inauspicious results occur when
some Termas are practiced is that there are false discovered
teachings. In particular there are false texts that look like
Terma script, and which are by false Tertons, the rebirths of
wrongly aspiring evil ministers (*) of the ancient time who
have the support of certain demonic spirits as the protectors
of those Termas. Such teachings belong to demonic forces.
By reciting and practicing those false teachings the follower
will move only in the wrong direction.
(* Evil ministers, Dud Ion (bDud Blott): While Guru
Padmasambhava was establishing Buddhism in Tibet until it
reached its peak, many esoteric teachings were concealed
for the future. Powerful but wrongly inspired
ministers, people and spirits made evil aspirations to
corrupt the Terma teachings by discovering false Termas
in the future. That is why false Termas are discovered in
Tibet from time to time as counterparts to the positively
effective and precious Termas.)...

THE REASON WHY NEGATIVE ASPIRATIONS WERE
MADE BY EVIL MINISTERS, ETC.:
Negative aspirations were made by evil ministers in order
to obstruct the enlightened activities of Guru Rinpoche. If
disciples of the profound Termas of Guru Rinpoche who
have the desire to achieve supreme attainment are fooled
into mistaking these false teachings for pure teachings, and
if they practice them, it will cause the decline of their
fortunes, their life, and so on. If any short-sighted people
who have no desire to attain a perpetual goal (enlightenment)
should practice these false teachings, then for the
time being it might seem to be helpful for increasing life,
majesty and the power of speech, but (eventually) those
teachings will become a cause of samsara and hell for them.
"

-Hidden teachings of Tibet: An explanation of the Terma
tradition of Tibetan Buddhism, Wisdom Publications,
1986, 1997 by Tulku Thondup Rinpoche, disciple of
Dodrupchen Rinpoche & Chimed Rigzin Rinpoche
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:30 am

btw these quotations are on p. 154 and p. 155 in Tulku Thondup's book. They're from the text "Wonder Ocean - An Explanation of the Dharma Treasure Tradition gTer Gyi rNam bShad" by the Third Dodrup Chen Rinpoche, translated by Tulku Thondup (pp. 101-170 in "Hidden Teachings of Tibet")

This is really a highly recommendable book.
Last edited by ReasonAndRhyme on Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:44 am

username wrote:As the Tulku Thondup's passage shows, major fake tertons do not make up their terma. It is channeled by demonic beings who are the major enemies of Guru Rinpoche.


Not necessarily. On p.156 there is a passage where Dodrup Chen Rinpoche states that there are also ordinary false Termas based on Nyams sNang (meditative Experiences, like hallucinations e. g.) which will not have much effect at all:

There are also ordinary teachings such as psychic vision teachings (Nyams sNang or Nyams Ch'os) which are similar in nature to the Terma liturgical texts and have not been empowered by demonic forces. If one practices them they will not have much effect, neither good nor bad. It is extremely important to examine very carefully since it is difficult to distinguish the pure from the false teachings, and one should follow a teaching that is authentic. (Dodrup Chen Rinpoche: Wonder Ocean, in: Tulku Thondup: Hidden Teachings of Tibet, p.156)
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby username » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:25 am

I did not say pure visions or ordinary visions or even fake tertons but: "major fake tertons do not make up their terma". Specially the ones who themselves detail how certain beings bring them so called "terma" or describe red lettering signs etc manifest in front of them by those beings. These are not made up fantasies but actual events for those major fake tertons warned against. As a result these few major fake tertons spread those major fake demonic terma and commit the numbered points mentioned trying to pervert Vajrayana and terma knowingly or unknowingly in their current lifetime.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:38 pm

username wrote:These are not made up fantasies but actual events for those major fake tertons warned against.


and how do you know that this applies to Ngakpa Chogyam?

I'm certainly not a fan of Chogyam and I don't think what he's doing is harmless. But on the other hand I don't see a reason to demonize the guy, either.
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