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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:31 pm 
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There are (restricted) sadhana texts and commentaries available all over the internet too, if you believe that this means one should not get the prerequisite lung, tri and wang in order to practice them then... :shrug:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:34 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
... projection ...

Hehehe. I used to have this girlfriend. Every second sentence of hers used to be "I was just joking!"

:tantrum: :tantrum: :tantrum:

We broke up.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:36 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV2W0nqVosA

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Last edited by muni on Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:56 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
There are (restricted) sadhana texts and commentaries available all over the internet too, if you believe that this means one should not get the prerequisite lung, tri and wang in order to practice them then... :shrug:


That's right, and this doesn't appear to be one of them, but rather a general treatise about what the kagyu tradition is all about. Like the songs of milarepa, you know?

So why are we arguing about it? Oh attachments to views, when will I release you?

:spy:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:09 pm 
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The fact that you say:
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That's right, and this doesn't appear to be one of them, but rather a general treatise about what the kagyu tradition is all about. Like the songs of milarepa, you know?
Displays a complete and utter ignorance about the text we are discussing (which, when I received it, required about 40+ hours of explanation) and the Songs of Milarepa. Neither are general treatises (though some of the songs are), they are (codified) specific instructions on Mahamudra "practice". "Pointing out" instructions actually. Now if you reckon you can receive "pointing out" instructions without the presence of a teacher, well... :shrug:
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So why are we arguing about it? Oh attachments to views, when will I release you?
Once you release yourself from the view that you know what you are talking about (in regards to the specific text). ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:32 pm 
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randomseb wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
There are (restricted) sadhana texts and commentaries available all over the internet too, if you believe that this means one should not get the prerequisite lung, tri and wang in order to practice them then... :shrug:


That's right, and this doesn't appear to be one of them, but rather a general treatise about what the kagyu tradition is all about. Like the songs of milarepa, you know?

So why are we arguing about it? Oh attachments to views, when will I release you?

:spy:

Don't worry. It's an aspiration prayer. So by reciting the text or contempating it, you are bringing the positive causes about to receive the lung and transmission of this text. It's an aspiration. Third Karmapa was by all accounts extremely compassionate. Aspiration prayers are never restricted! So recite the text with the aspiration that you will meet with a genuine teacher, recieve the lung and transmission and realise total mahamudra. Don't worry about Tibetan phonetics or anything like that. It's not really important.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:43 pm 
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Yudron wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
Sorry, just to clarify the confusion: the point I was (clumsily) trying to make is that just because a Google search turns up a teaching, does not mean that the teaching should be freely available. Just like the instance where a websearch for a (we all agree it seems) generally "nasty topic" does not legitimate the "nasty topic". I picked an (obviously) extreme example in the hope that may point was made clearer, it seems though that people reacted more to the example I chose than to the point I was trying to make (fair enough, given the nature of the example). I will try to use less extreme examples in the future! :smile:


I agree with Greg's main point here, which is that it sounds like this is traditionally a restricted practice, presumably introduced to students in the Kagyu system at an appropriate point in their training. There is no need for it to be circulating on the internet. As a practitioner in another lineage, I don't need to see it. Rather than cherry picking the highest teachings of every Tibetan lineage I need to bring my own practice to fruition.


After 17 years of serious practice in the Nyingma Dzogchen traditions, I feel very much like a beginner. I admire the rime masters of old, but I don't feel I have the capacity to take on learning the technical vocabulary, relationships with lamas, and subtle nuances necessary to master another tradition. I hope to start as a child in my next life, then perhaps I can be like that.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:28 pm 
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the Third Karmapa's Aspiration of Mahamudra is in the form of a "Monlam," or aspiration prayer. It's common practice in Karma Kagyu centers to recite it at the end of various pujas, tsoks, etc. It is perhaps the most well-loved Karma Kagyu aspiration prayer there is.....

It's also one of the most commented-on texts in the Karma Kagyu tradition--you can find many commentaries published in books, and on-line, as everyone's noted.

It is not a restricted text, at least not in the Karma Kagyu circles I have moved in for decades. BUT--it is ideal to have "lung," and more importantly, I feel, an oral explanation and commentary on the text. Without those things, it is useful as an overview and teaching of the Mahamudra tradition of the Karma Kagyu, but it does not become a complete element of one's living practice. Therefore, it would be good if those who are interested in making this a part of their daily practice would get the "lung" and "tri," but I believe it's appropriate and beneficial to read the commentaries that are available by respected Lamas, even if one does not have the "lung" and "tri."

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:36 pm 
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conebeckham wrote:
It is perhaps the most well-loved Karma Kagyu aspiration prayer there is.....

It is not a restricted text, at least not in the Karma Kagyu circles I have moved in for decades. BUT--it is ideal to have "lung," and more importantly, I feel, an oral explanation and commentary on the text.


Thank you for the clarifications, conebeckham

:namaste:


gregkavarnos wrote:
Neither are general treatises (though some of the songs are), they are (codified) specific instructions on Mahamudra "practice". "Pointing out" instructions actually.


All the sutras and similar texts and poetry fall under this category, so I am not sure what you are saying, but this is ok!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:12 pm 
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It's a somewhat delicate balance, IMO.....and I think Greg raises a valid point, or one worth pondering at least.

This text isn't really "sutra level" text. It does contain some "pith instructions" from Mahamudra tradition, which is Tantra. Of course, our tradition is to encompass sutra and tantra in one path, and so there are elements of Sutra involved here, as well. There's also a bit of the "Doha" or "Tantric Song" flavor here.

The potential danger with public "consumption" of such material is two-fold, as I see it.

First, there is the possibility that, by reading the words without an explanation, one can misconstrue the meaning, of course--but more than that, one may develop some sort of conceptual idea, and form (and subsequently hold or cling to) a misunderstanding which may "block" the true, experiential dawning of View. This is the traditional reason why such texts are "restricted"--things like "Chagchen Ngedon Gyamtso ("Ocean of Absolute Meaning," or sometimes translated as "Ocean of Certainty")" etc. are wonderful opportunities for such possibilities when they are delivered by the right teacher, to the devoted student, but they can also be fuel for self-delusion.

The second issue is based on the first. It sometimes happens that an individual without experience, but under the self-delusion referred to above, thinks they can teach others about the Absolute Meaning. Thus, misunderstanding it themselves, they are not content to be confused, but wish to confuse others as well.

These are the reasons why traditional teachers are concerned. They are good reasons. If one understands these reasons, and is honestly able to evaluate one's experience, I think there's no problem. But we're so good at deluding ourselves (the very basis of Samsara, in fact) that, in the end, a qualified Guru is the only one who can evaluate our experience.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:16 pm 
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Good points. Some texts have two levels of meaning, e.g. Seven-Line Prayer to Padmasambhava.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:35 pm 
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The other point my Lama warned me about is that often these things don't translate properly, either because of a lack of a suitable word, or because of prior meanings to words (for example mind and consciousness). Often things are translated by scholars, not practioners, so the meaning gets lost

:reading:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:04 am 
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Granted, this is not an online source but the prayer is included in the Kagyu Monlam Book. That book is well worth getting, as all the important prayers are included. And they are all printed in Tibetan, with phonetics, and translated, too.

Best wishes...


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:18 pm 
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randomseb wrote:
The other point my Lama warned me about is that often these things don't translate properly, either because of a lack of a suitable word, or because of prior meanings to words (for example mind and consciousness). Often things are translated by scholars, not practioners, so the meaning gets lost

:reading:


I think the evolution of Buddhism in the west can also be an evolution of language to make it accessible for everyone. Of course it is very great for those who could study Tibetan, Pali, Sanskrit, for sure.

But then in Tibet people didn't continue to study all texts in Pali or Sanskrit. Therefore everyone should have the opportunity to study and practice in their own language. There is regullarly misunderstanding and confusion in the English language about the meaning of words, sometimes too much emphasis and by that the meaning is of course completely lost.
Translation must be by the wisdom-heart, a dictionary is lacking that. Many Tibetan masters who got the teaching in Tibetan know enough English and can look by synonyms and so on in order to help with the eventually struggle of language and meaning. I suppose people make a list of the troubling words in which they think misunderstanding by the change of language can arise and ask/discus about with the master.

Life is impermanent.

Also texts appear different, dependent on mind. Even the best explanation given, depends on own being.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:46 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
randomseb wrote:
It is fairly disturbing that you would go there :roll:
Just making a point. Disturbing is the fact that there is even a single reference (to child pornography) out there on the internet.
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General reading of a text and practicing a text are two different things :shrug:
You won't see me disagreeing there.
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There's no call for getting upset :thumbsup:
I am not upset, you are projecting. ;)


If you are using such foul references on a Buddhist forum and it's not even a result of your being (temporarily) upset, so much the worse.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:09 pm 
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zangskar wrote:
If you are using such foul references on a Buddhist forum and it's not even a result of your being (temporarily) upset, so much the worse.
Foul references? Welcome to reality my friend! Upset about what? The 3rd Karmapas Aspiration Prayer?

Trees, forest, trees, forest, trees, forest, ad nauseum...

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:21 pm 
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Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Good points. Some texts have two levels of meaning, e.g. Seven-Line Prayer to Padmasambhava.


Only two.....

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:39 pm 
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practitioner wrote:
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Good points. Some texts have two levels of meaning, e.g. Seven-Line Prayer to Padmasambhava.


Only two.....


Five according to 'Padma Karpo' by Ju Mipham. Check this:

http://www.quietmountain.org/links/teachings/7_Line_Prayer_To_Guru_Rinpoche/7lnpryr.htm

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:08 pm 
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Stewart wrote:
practitioner wrote:
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Good points. Some texts have two levels of meaning, e.g. Seven-Line Prayer to Padmasambhava.


Only two.....


Five according to 'Padma Karpo' by Ju Mipham. Check this:

http://www.quietmountain.org/links/teachings/7_Line_Prayer_To_Guru_Rinpoche/7lnpryr.htm


This text by Mipham is translated as a book; http://www.amazon.com/White-Lotus-Expla ... 1590305116
It goes a lot deeper than Tulku Thondrups teaching I think, lovely book.

/magnus

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:57 pm 
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practitioner wrote:
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Good points. Some texts have two levels of meaning, e.g. Seven-Line Prayer to Padmasambhava.


Only two.....


:thumbsup:


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