Mantra Liberation Through Hearing ("Ha Gan Ga")

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Lobsang
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Mantra Liberation Through Hearing ("Ha Gan Ga")

Post by Lobsang »

Hi!
On these sites:
https://neozen888.wordpress.com/2013/08 ... h-hearing/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhskQJxIsIk
it is claimed that His Eminence Gyaltsab Rinpoche said that
those persons who hear the recording of Him reciting the mantra
will get in this way an oral transmission of the mantra, and will be also be
in a position to be able to give a transmission of this
mantra to others by reciting it to them.

My main question is: is this true? Is it true that He stated that? :smile:

My second question is about the mantra itself.
Which one of these versions is a correct transcription:

(A)


A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
Ma Ben Dhar Ma Ra Ra
Ha Gan Ga Ah Sha La
Sa BEN Dhar Ma Da Li (is it 'Ben'?)
Ga Ha Na Ah LI Da (is it 'Li'?)
Ha Ma Sa Sha Gi Yo

(B)

A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
Ma Ben Dhar Ma Ra Ra
Ha Gan Ga Ah Sha La
Sa DEN Dhar Ma Da Li (is it 'Den'?)
Ga Ha Na Ah LA Da (is it 'La'?)
Ha Ma Sa Sha Gi Yo

(C) Also, is it more
correct to the way of saying it, that
the last syllable is transcribed as 'Yo' or 'U'? As
in:
a) Ha Ma Sa Sha Gi Yo
or
b) Ha Ma Sa Sha Gi U
?

Best regards
Malcolm
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Re: Mantra Liberation Through Hearing ("Ha Gan Ga")

Post by Malcolm »

Lobsang wrote: it is claimed that His Eminence Gyaltsab Rinpoche said that
those persons who hear the recording of Him reciting the mantra
ChNN gives the lung for this mantra in person all the time, it is part of the Shitro practice which comes from Namcho.
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Lobsang
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Re: Mantra Liberation Through Hearing ("Ha Gan Ga")

Post by Lobsang »

Malcolm wrote:
Lobsang wrote: it is claimed that His Eminence Gyaltsab Rinpoche said that
those persons who hear the recording of Him reciting the mantra
ChNN gives the lung for this mantra in person all the time, it is part of the Shitro practice which comes from Namcho.
Thanks :namaste: but that doesn't answer my questions, no offence really.
Who is 'ChNN'?
Malcolm
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Re: Mantra Liberation Through Hearing ("Ha Gan Ga")

Post by Malcolm »

Lobsang wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Lobsang wrote: it is claimed that His Eminence Gyaltsab Rinpoche said that
those persons who hear the recording of Him reciting the mantra
ChNN gives the lung for this mantra in person all the time, it is part of the Shitro practice which comes from Namcho.
Thanks :namaste: but that doesn't answer my questions, no offence really.
Who is 'ChNN'?

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu.

In general, you cannot receive a lung from a recording.
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Lobsang
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Re: Mantra Liberation Through Hearing ("Ha Gan Ga")

Post by Lobsang »

Thanks,
but maybe HE thinks that it (to hear a recorded recitation) is enough,
so I am interested if that's true. Also,
Lama Zopa Rinpoche claimed similar for the Golden Light Sutra transmission
by help of a video recording of his personal transmission.

So, I am interested in that - if HE Gyaltsab Rinpoche really said
that, and if I agree with that or not, due to my understanding or nonunderstaning of
it is another topic...

Cheers! :smile:
Malcolm
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Re: Mantra Liberation Through Hearing ("Ha Gan Ga")

Post by Malcolm »

Lobsang wrote:Thanks,
but maybe HE thinks that it (to hear a recorded recitation) is enough,
so I am interested if that's true. Also,
Lama Zopa Rinpoche claimed similar for the Golden Light Sutra transmission
by help of a video recording of his personal transmission.

So, I am interested in that - if HE Gyaltsab Rinpoche really said
that, and if I agree with that or not, due to my understanding or nonunderstaning of
it is another topic...

Cheers! :smile:
Sutras do not require lungs at all.

You cannot receive a lung through a recording. It is not a matter of opinion.
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Lobsang
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Re: Mantra Liberation Through Hearing ("Ha Gan Ga")

Post by Lobsang »

Why do you think it is like that? Could you
explain?
What's the logic behind it?

Thanks!
Malcolm
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Re: Mantra Liberation Through Hearing ("Ha Gan Ga")

Post by Malcolm »

Lobsang wrote:Why do you think it is like that? Could you
explain?
What's the logic behind it?

Thanks!

A recording is not a person. It has no mind and no discrimination.
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Lobsang
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Re: Mantra Liberation Through Hearing ("Ha Gan Ga")

Post by Lobsang »

Yes, yes, I got that, but actually, my
way of posing the question was not so precise.


So, I wanted to ask:
is lung an intervention of a lama's mind onto the energy system of a student,
and does it necessarily require an intuitive (or 'seeing') lama that exactly knows
what to do (for example senses the student's 'aura' or 'quality of mind', or is it something else?
So, how to understand the lung? What's the logic behind that (proper lung) - was my actual
question.
Lhasa
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Re: Mantra Liberation Through Hearing ("Ha Gan Ga")

Post by Lhasa »

Garchen Rinpoche recently deliberately recorded a transmission and said that one had received it by watching the recording and that one also could give that transmission. Malcolm is out numbered, it seems. I'm sure Garchen Rinpoche can check and verify for himself that folks received that transmission from his recording. He has lots of siddhis. And he keeps talking about trusting the Buddhas of the Three Times.

Lobsang wrote:Hi!
On these sites:
https://neozen888.wordpress.com/2013/08 ... h-hearing/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhskQJxIsIk
it is claimed that His Eminence Gyaltsab Rinpoche said that
those persons who hear the recording of Him reciting the mantra
will get in this way an oral transmission of the mantra, and will be also be
in a position to be able to give a transmission of this
mantra to others by reciting it to them.

My main question is: is this true? Is it true that He stated that? :smile:

My second question is about the mantra itself.
Which one of these versions is a correct transcription:

(A)


A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
Ma Ben Dhar Ma Ra Ra
Ha Gan Ga Ah Sha La
Sa BEN Dhar Ma Da Li (is it 'Ben'?)
Ga Ha Na Ah LI Da (is it 'Li'?)
Ha Ma Sa Sha Gi Yo

(B)

A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
Ma Ben Dhar Ma Ra Ra
Ha Gan Ga Ah Sha La
Sa DEN Dhar Ma Da Li (is it 'Den'?)
Ga Ha Na Ah LA Da (is it 'La'?)
Ha Ma Sa Sha Gi Yo

(C) Also, is it more
correct to the way of saying it, that
the last syllable is transcribed as 'Yo' or 'U'? As
in:
a) Ha Ma Sa Sha Gi Yo
or
b) Ha Ma Sa Sha Gi U
?

Best regards
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mantra Liberation Through Hearing ("Ha Gan Ga")

Post by Malcolm »

Lhasa wrote:Garchen Rinpoche recently deliberately recorded a transmission and said that one had received it by watching the recording and that one also could give that transmission.
No. You have misunderstood everything. Such a transmission is impossible. It is no more possible to give a lung via a recording than it is for the Buddhas to remove your suffering with their hands.
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Lobsang
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Re: Mantra Liberation Through Hearing ("Ha Gan Ga")

Post by Lobsang »

But you still haven't
explained why it is impossible, or
the basics of the process of receiving proper lung that
would make the 'recording-lung' impossible...
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conebeckham
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Re: Mantra Liberation Through Hearing ("Ha Gan Ga")

Post by conebeckham »

Yes, he did.
Briefly--you can only get Lung from a living, breathing person.

A recording is not a living, breathing person.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Lobsang
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Re: Mantra Liberation Through Hearing ("Ha Gan Ga")

Post by Lobsang »

that's not an explanation, that's
a statement. For example, what I asked is to
add 'an explanation' as in:
"It is not possible, because the lung is --- definition of lung here --- , and
since a recording does not fulfill that condition, then it is not possible. But not
to write 'it is not human, it doesn't have discrimination', since that is not enough.
For cooking a lunch you also need discrimination, but that doesn't make it equivalent
to a lung. So, what IS a Lung? What makes it possible ONLY by a human (and maybe some other being) and
not 'by sound waves'?
Without an explanation like that, we're still in the 'I know and you don't' sphere.

And also, this as an example:
http://fpmt.org/education/teachings/sut ... ansmission
Malcolm
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Re: Mantra Liberation Through Hearing ("Ha Gan Ga")

Post by Malcolm »

Lobsang wrote:that's not an explanation, that's
a statement. For example, what I asked is to
add 'an explanation' as in:
"It is not possible, because the lung is --- definition of lung here --- , and
since a recording does not fulfill that condition, then it is not possible. But not
to write 'it is not human, it doesn't have discrimination', since that is not enough.
For cooking a lunch you also need discrimination, but that doesn't make it equivalent
to a lung. So, what IS a Lung? What makes it possible ONLY by a human (and maybe some other being) and
not 'by sound waves'?
Without an explanation like that, we're still in the 'I know and you don't' sphere.

And also, this as an example:
http://fpmt.org/education/teachings/sut ... ansmission
A recording has no consciousness, it therefore has no will, it therefore cannot act, it therefore cannot give a lung. This is not a complicated principle.
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Lobsang
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Re: Mantra Liberation Through Hearing ("Ha Gan Ga")

Post by Lobsang »

Thanks.
That's not complicated.
But it is if I have a notion of lung
as a transmission of energy, ie. sound, ie. vibration onto an energy
system of a human or other being. In that conception I could think that just
hearing a complex of vibrations may 'initiate' my energies. So that makes it
complicated, that's why I asked you about a detailed description of lung, what it
is, and if it is necessary to project the energy to a certain part of the student's energy
system, or is it necessary to invoke Buddhas who in actuality then give you a lung, etcetera, etcetera...
As an inanimate sound of music can brake windows if it's too loud, as an inamite sound of music can
make my emotions different if it is in a certain 'proper' form, so I can think that a mantra recording
of a specific sound of a specific master can make my energy system different in a significant manner to
call it a lung. Or a master can have a siddhi to connect it with me, etcetera. Who knows; that's why I'm
asking.
Cheers.
Malcolm
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Re: Mantra Liberation Through Hearing ("Ha Gan Ga")

Post by Malcolm »

Everything you wrote here...
Lobsang wrote: But it is if I have a notion of lung
as a transmission of energy, ie. sound, ie. vibration onto an energy
system of a human or other being. In that conception I could think that just
hearing a complex of vibrations may 'initiate' my energies. So that makes it
complicated, that's why I asked you about a detailed description of lung, what it
is, and if it is necessary to project the energy to a certain part of the student's energy
system, or is it necessary to invoke Buddhas who in actuality then give you a lung, etcetera, etcetera...
As an inanimate sound of music can brake windows if it's too loud, as an inamite sound of music can
make my emotions different if it is in a certain 'proper' form, so I can think that a mantra recording
of a specific sound of a specific master can make my energy system different in a significant manner to
call it a lung. Or a master can have a siddhi to connect it with me, etcetera. Who knows; that's why I'm
asking.
Cheers.
...is a lot of complicated conceptual proliferation that has no basis whatsoever in the texts.

So, I really do not have anything more to add other than what I stated above.
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Lobsang
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Re: Mantra Liberation Through Hearing ("Ha Gan Ga")

Post by Lobsang »

Then it stands like your word 'vs' the words of Lama Zopa, HE Gyaltsab Rinpoche, Garchen Rinpoche, ...

But still there's no answer up here to my primary question - did
HE Gyaltsab Rinpoche really state that?
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Lobsang
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Re: Mantra Liberation Through Hearing ("Ha Gan Ga")

Post by Lobsang »

But thanks,
anyway.
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conebeckham
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Re: Mantra Liberation Through Hearing ("Ha Gan Ga")

Post by conebeckham »

Lobsang wrote:Thanks.
That's not complicated.
But it is if I have a notion of lung
as a transmission of energy, ie. sound, ie. vibration onto an energy
system of a human or other being. In that conception I could think that just
hearing a complex of vibrations may 'initiate' my energies. So that makes it
complicated, that's why I asked you about a detailed description of lung, what it
is, and if it is necessary to project the energy to a certain part of the student's energy
system, or is it necessary to invoke Buddhas who in actuality then give you a lung, etcetera, etcetera...
As an inanimate sound of music can brake windows if it's too loud, as an inamite sound of music can
make my emotions different if it is in a certain 'proper' form, so I can think that a mantra recording
of a specific sound of a specific master can make my energy system different in a significant manner to
call it a lung. Or a master can have a siddhi to connect it with me, etcetera. Who knows; that's why I'm
asking.
Cheers.
You're making it into a sort of "materialist" thing--some sort of pseudoscientific phenomenological event involving the "power" or "energy" of sound. Lung is certainly not like that. Buddhist empowerments, in general, are not like that at all.

I don't know what Gyaltsap Rinpoche said,exactly, as I didn't watch the video. But I think there's a difference between hearing the mantra, via web videos, etc., and a true Lung. Many things are possible--maybe it's bad translation, maybe someone is misinterpreting a specific statement as a generality, I don't know......
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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