Mantra Liberation Through Hearing ("Ha Gan Ga")

[Malcolm]

Okay, so is Garchen Rinpoche intentionally sending himself and hundreds of other people to hell, including me and other people on this forum?

I can only related to you what is described in the tantras. I am not going to opine on Garchen Rinpoche's intentions.

The essence of Vajrayāna is a live connection with a teacher, emphasis on live. If someone wants to study with Garchen Rinpoche, then they should make the effort to go and meet him in person.

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

This issue will never end but we should chill about specific teachers. Bad juju.

And.

There's no question that if we proceed not just on this issue but on any issue pertaining to HYT we need the guru.

The real one. The physical one. The ol' flesh and blood guru. Nirmanakaya. In person.

There's no other way.

That's the whole point.

We have to be 110% certain. Solid as a rock. Hard as a diamond.

Only guru can give it to you. If you have devotion, if you call him from afar - he'll respond.

Physically.

It's all there in the different types of refuge. Plain as day. Right under your nose.

If you don't get it this way, well, sorry to break it to you, but

... your banana ain't ripe yet.

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

The essence of Vajrayāna is a live connection with a teacher, emphasis on live.

[Boomerang]

Okay, so is Garchen Rinpoche intentionally sending himself and hundreds of other people to hell, including me and other people on this forum?

I can only related to you what is described in the tantras. I am not going to opine on Garchen Rinpoche's intentions.

Does that mean you're agnostic about the validity of Garchen Rinpoche's recorded empowerments. I ask because to me it sounded like you were saying that you believe, with the Mahāmudratilaka Tantra as your reference, that regardless of Rinpoche's positive intentions and siddhis he is hellbound, as well as myself, Lhasa, Sherab Dorje, and others. If that's the case please tell me straight up so I can emotionally prepare myself; hell is scary. You have corrected my views in the past and I rely on you to do it again. You can PM me if that's what you prefer.

[Malcolm]

Okay, so is Garchen Rinpoche intentionally sending himself and hundreds of other people to hell, including me and other people on this forum?

I can only related to you what is described in the tantras. I am not going to opine on Garchen Rinpoche's intentions.

Does that mean you're agnostic about the validity of Garchen Rinpoche's recorded empowerments. I ask because to me it sounded like you were saying that you believe, with the Mahāmudratilaka Tantra as your reference, that regardless of Rinpoche's positive intentions and siddhis he is hellbound, as well as myself, Lhasa, Sherab Dorje, and others. If that's the case please tell me straight up so I can emotionally prepare myself; hell is scary. You have corrected my views in the past and I rely on you to do it again. You can PM me if that's what you prefer.

I think it is pretty clear that Garchen Rinpoche wants students to attend in person or by live webcast. As far as recordings go, I imagine that his thinking runs as follows, "if beginners, new people, want to practice, they can get an idea from watching an online recording, and perhaps there is some positive connection made to the teaching and if they recite the mantra, there is no harm."

But for example, HHDL makes it very clear that watching Kalacakra online does not grant one the empowerment. Also CHNN makes it very clear that empowerments that rely on substances cannot be given via webcast. Other Lamas may have a different ideas about this, but I really think in general all Lamas will agree that there is no way one can receive an empowerment from a recording of an empowerment. I am quite certain, for example, if you wrote ChNN on this subject, he would say very clearly to you that you cannot receive any kind of transmission from a recording.

And one thing I am pretty clear on is that no one receives empowerments or a lung from a recording.

[Boomerang]

Karma is volition, so since I intended to receive lung and empowerment in an improper way, am I in danger of going to the lower realms? That's the message I get from your posts, for example, this one:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p230363

Therefore, if someone asks me, I will always honestly tell them that it is impossible to receive any kind of Vajrayāna transmission from a recording of a prior event. People are of course free to disagree and that is between them and lower realms.

If I really am going to avici hell I'd rather know now than be paranoid about it for the rest of my life.

[Malcolm]

Karma is volition, so since I intended to receive lung and empowerment in an improper way, am I in danger of going to the lower realms? That's the message I get from your posts, for example, this one:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p230363

Therefore, if someone asks me, I will always honestly tell them that it is impossible to receive any kind of Vajrayāna transmission from a recording of a prior event. People are of course free to disagree and that is between them and lower realms.

If I really am going to avici hell I'd rather know now than be paranoid about it for the rest of my life.

There is no such thing as fixed karma in Buddhadharma. One can purify anything. Including taking teachings in a less than optimal way.

[Boomerang]

Karma is volition, so since I intended to receive lung and empowerment in an improper way, am I in danger of going to the lower realms? That's the message I get from your posts, for example, this one:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p230363

Therefore, if someone asks me, I will always honestly tell them that it is impossible to receive any kind of Vajrayāna transmission from a recording of a prior event. People are of course free to disagree and that is between them and lower realms.

If I really am going to avici hell I'd rather know now than be paranoid about it for the rest of my life.

There is no such thing as fixed karma in Buddhadharma. One can purify anything. Including taking teachings in a less than optimal way.

Okay, so I did commit some sort of downfall by watching those recordings with the intention of receiving lung and empowerment? In that case, what should I do to fix this problem?

[Malcolm]

In that case, what should I do to fix this problem?

You should go and meet a teacher face to face (best case) or through a live webcast (next best) and receive transmissions in a proper way. If you have faith in Garchen Rinpoche, go meet him.

[Boomerang]

In that case, what should I do to fix this problem?

You should go and meet a teacher face to face (best case) or through a live webcast (next best) and receive transmissions in a proper way. If you have faith in Garchen Rinpoche, go meet him.

Shouldn't I stay away from Garchen Rinpoche since his statements were what encouraged me to create this negative karma in the first place? How is it okay for him to publicly support empowerment via recording but a downfall for me to believe him? If I went up to him now and requested empowerment, specifically because I doubt his statement on empowerments, wouldn't that be impure vision or something?

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Okay, so I did commit some sort of downfall by watching those recordings with the intention of receiving lung and empowerment?

No.

The question at hand is the efficacy of your practice. I'm not a big fan of internet lungs or wongs either live or recorded, but I have no problem in watching them. I assume there has to be some sort of blessing for the internet events, creating karmic connections or whatever. But since I don't have a lot of confidence in their potency, when I sit down to meditate I'll stick to Vajrayana practices where I've had in-person initiations.

...so if you have no faith an empowerment won't work even if you are there live.

My faith is weak, so I need the extra "oomph" of an in-person initiation.

And to be quite frank, the Dharma related internet culture has the widespread assumption that "faith" is not necessary at all. It is downplayed or dismissed, re-defined or rationalized away. It's nice to spread karmic seeds on the internet, but the non-negotiable agnosticism and atheism that those seeds fall on is infertile ground. The only way I know of to counteract that is to be confronted by a living human being that has some level of realization. The internet will not be able to offer that.

[Malcolm]

In that case, what should I do to fix this problem?

You should go and meet a teacher face to face (best case) or through a live webcast (next best) and receive transmissions in a proper way. If you have faith in Garchen Rinpoche, go meet him.

Shouldn't I stay away from Garchen Rinpoche since his statements were what encouraged me to create this negative karma in the first place? How is it okay for him to publicly support empowerment via recording but a downfall for me to believe him? If I went up to him now and requested empowerment, specifically because I doubt his statement on empowerments, wouldn't that be impure vision or something?

I am not really sure if he does support empowerment via recordings, despite what his students say. And in any case the pure vision of buddhas cannot remove the impure vision of sentient beings. If it could, we would have no need to practice at all.

In any case, there are any number of very highly qualified teachers you can make a connection with out there.

[Boomerang]

In any case, there are any number of very highly qualified teachers you can make a connection with out there.

At this point I feel reluctant to make a connection with any more teachers. I thought the third highest ranking teacher in the Drikung Kagyu lineage would be okay, but the next thing I know people are telling me that I cursed myself and he didn't really say the things he said. How do I know who to trust?

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

I thought the third highest ranking teacher in the Drikung Kagyu lineage would be okay, but the next thing I know people are telling me that I basically cursed myself. How do I know who to trust?

Malcolm and I are very conservative. VERY. I'm actually to the right of him on this particular subject. So you have to understand that and factor it into the discussion.

You should know that ChNN has been freely teaching Dzogchen for many decades, and there was a lot of resistance and criticism of him for his liberal approach from early on. Now it seems not to matter so much. Perhaps Garchin R. is just ahead of the curve on this. Only time, and the realization of his internet students, will tell. If they attain realization then the medicine of Dharma cured their ills. What we are discussing here is the difference between a placebo and real medicine, not the difference between real medicine and poison.

BTW, when Garchen R. was last in my town I went to his empowerment. As conservative as I am, I'd encourage anyone that has the same opportunity to do likewise without reservation.

[conebeckham]

In any case, there are any number of very highly qualified teachers you can make a connection with out there.

At this point I feel reluctant to make a connection with any more teachers. I thought the third highest ranking teacher in the Drikung Kagyu lineage would be okay, but the next thing I know people are telling me that I basically cursed myself. How do I know who to trust?

30 years ago we would not have been having this conversation. Heck, 20 years ago I don't think any of this would have been at issue. However, in the Pre-Internet age people would read books and get all sorts of crazy notions about their ability to practice, etc., based on reading alone. I also think there were far fewer knowledable people--both experienced students, and qualified teachers--in those days, and access was harder.

In any case, there is no "unrepairable curse" or fault, you know, and frankly, you could look at this from a different perspective. If there is no empowerment via recording, then there is no samaya, and thus nothing to break. Going to a live empowerment, and than failing to maintain samaya, is a far more karmically negative situation. I am going to bet that there is more broken samaya in the world due to samaya breakage from live empowerments and students who do not maintain samaya, then there could be due to misunderstanding or misconstruing whether a transmission has actually taken place at all, via whatever means.

A bunch of us have opined about the various issues regarding live streamed teachings, live streamed empowerments, recorded empowerments, etc. Some of us have more "authority," and have quoted those authorities, etc. But ultimately, with Vajrayana, it is about the teacher/student relationship. I am going to go out on a limb here, and say that is the ultimate authority, surpassing, perhaps, even textual authorities.

Given that the student/teacher relation is the primary means of transmission in Vajrayana, there is no other ultimate recourse, IMO, for someone with questions regarding samaya, transmission validity, etc., than to depend on that relation. And it is a living relation--that is the key. Second-hand information is not the same as an actual student/teacher interaction, and it never will be.

Therefore, the only solution to your issue is to seek out a qualified teacher--including Garchen Rinpoche, who makes himself available to his students every year, and schedules regular practice and teaching retreats in various places, on an annual basis--and to create a relationship, and have a personal interaction. I know this can present various hardships, but I think none of those hardships are insurmountable for any of us.

[Malcolm]

In any case, there are any number of very highly qualified teachers you can make a connection with out there.

At this point I feel reluctant to make a connection with any more teachers. I thought the third highest ranking teacher in the Drikung Kagyu lineage would be okay, but the next thing I know people are telling me that I cursed myself and he didn't really say the things he said. How do I know who to trust?

You can trust lineage heads. The Dalai Lama, Sakya Trizin, the Karmapa, Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche, etc. Then you can trust the lamas which are responsible to them, and so on.

I never said don't trust Garchen Rinpoche, I said go meet him in person.

[Urgyen Dorje]

there is really no way to describe the qualities of garchen rinpooche. he is probably one of the greatest living masters of dzogchen, mahamudra, and tantra. if you get close to people who are close to him, you'll come to realize he's a container of transmissions, including very profound and vast experiential transmissions of dzogchen and mahamudra. you'll also realize his power as a vajra master. if you get close to rinpoche yourself, you'll come to realize that he's a container of qualities, an ocean. the unimpededness and compassionate power of his mind is so remarkable that it almost can't be believed.

ten years ago i would probably have answered like the conservatives here. and rightfully so, as that is the view of many of my main teachers. but ten years later, i am more conservative as i examine my own mind, but i am confident just leaving my faith in garchen rinpoche. the only difference is studying with garchen rinpoche in those ten years.

my only concern is that doubts about this great master may be generated. instead of casting doubts, i would encourage anyone and everyone to make a connection, any connection to gar rinpoche. if you can, go see him. do anything possible. go see him. if you can't, take his teachings and empowerments without doubt. if you can't do that, read his books and transcripts. if you can'd to that, keep his picture.

[Lhasa]

[Lhasa]

TULKU URGYEN
Extract from a Teaching.
Pure Perception:

"Vajrayana in general is training in pure perception—Dzogchen is even much more so.

How can you call yourself a practitioner of Dzogchen if you spend your time defaming, finding fault with or criticizing others? Maintain the view of pure sight, sound and awareness. This is how samsara and nirvana actually are, pervaded by the three kayas or three vajras. Sentient beings might not be aware of their Buddha Nature, but they are nevertheless endowed with the three kayas.

You need to train in pure perception by accepting and respecting the three kayas in everyone. Great masters do perceive all sights, sound and cognitive activity as infinite purity. Once recognition of awareness is stabilized, there is no more impurity to be perceived.

Train in this by thinking: "As the Buddha Nature pervades all beings, not a single being is unsuitable." The more you respect Buddha Nature in others and train in pure perception, the more your own practice will progress.

Slandering beings is slandering Buddha nature; stop doing that. If due to your own impurity you perceive mistakes in other beings, at least do not voice them.
If your awareness practice is too weak to sustain pure perception naturally, try to develop a rapport within an intellectual understanding of Buddha Nature in others. Know that your impure perception of others only happens either because you have not recognized genuine awareness, or because that recognition is not developed. Criticizing and slandering others puts you out of tune with the enlightened essence.

You mainly harm yourself. The most unrealized so-called practitioner of Dzogchen can at least keep his or her mouth shut, even if he can not actually maintain the view.

A deceitful person sees everybody with suspicion and finds many mistakes in others. A pure person naturally perceives others to be good. How much more so does a perfect yogin or yogini. He or she has the perception of infinite purity. They will actually perceive all forms as the bodies of the deities, all sounds as mantra, and all thoughts and emotions as the display of awareness.

In their perception of pure sight, sound and awareness there is no attachment to friends, or aversion to enemies. Awareness itself being free from concepts of good and bad, proper and improper, they perceive everything as great equanimity. They do not accept or reject friends or foes. They perceive not the tiniest speck of impurity.

As is said, "Arriving at a golden island, one cannot find ordinary earth or stones even if one searches for them." In general, good and bad are your own perception, so you cannot possibly see faults in others when your own are purified."

[Malcolm]

All very good advice, unfortunately, it has nothing do with the question at hand. The question at hand is how to properly enter into the training Tulku Orgyen is talking about. So this topic is not mere criticism for criticism's sake.

TULKU URGYEN
Extract from a Teaching.
Pure Perception:

"Vajrayana in general is training in pure perception—Dzogchen is even much more so.

How can you call yourself a practitioner of Dzogchen if you spend your time defaming, finding fault with or criticizing others? Maintain the view of pure sight, sound and awareness. This is how samsara and nirvana actually are, pervaded by the three kayas or three vajras. Sentient beings might not be aware of their Buddha Nature, but they are nevertheless endowed with the three kayas.

You need to train in pure perception by accepting and respecting the three kayas in everyone. Great masters do perceive all sights, sound and cognitive activity as infinite purity. Once recognition of awareness is stabilized, there is no more impurity to be perceived.

Train in this by thinking: "As the Buddha Nature pervades all beings, not a single being is unsuitable." The more you respect Buddha Nature in others and train in pure perception, the more your own practice will progress.

Slandering beings is slandering Buddha nature; stop doing that. If due to your own impurity you perceive mistakes in other beings, at least do not voice them.
If your awareness practice is too weak to sustain pure perception naturally, try to develop a rapport within an intellectual understanding of Buddha Nature in others. Know that your impure perception of others only happens either because you have not recognized genuine awareness, or because that recognition is not developed. Criticizing and slandering others puts you out of tune with the enlightened essence.

You mainly harm yourself. The most unrealized so-called practitioner of Dzogchen can at least keep his or her mouth shut, even if he can not actually maintain the view.

A deceitful person sees everybody with suspicion and finds many mistakes in others. A pure person naturally perceives others to be good. How much more so does a perfect yogin or yogini. He or she has the perception of infinite purity. They will actually perceive all forms as the bodies of the deities, all sounds as mantra, and all thoughts and emotions as the display of awareness.

In their perception of pure sight, sound and awareness there is no attachment to friends, or aversion to enemies. Awareness itself being free from concepts of good and bad, proper and improper, they perceive everything as great equanimity. They do not accept or reject friends or foes. They perceive not the tiniest speck of impurity.

As is said, "Arriving at a golden island, one cannot find ordinary earth or stones even if one searches for them." In general, good and bad are your own perception, so you cannot possibly see faults in others when your own are purified."