Disease-attacks while doing Ngondro
Disease-attacks while doing Ngondro
Hi folks!
I have had lots of disease-attacks while doing Ngondro,
some quite serious cases also.
( Have been doing the practises one year now,HH Karmapa Ngondro )
I feel this must be related to purification,i guess.
So,is there some texts/sayings/commentaries regarding such a situation?
Can´t seem to find anything myself - but i know i have read about it in the past.
This situation is not discouraging me at all, on the contrary, i got the feeling i´m on the
right track...strange-hahaha!
I think this situation is not so uncommon,but it would be nice with some input though,
as i´m completely alone with the practice, and with no access to a Lama.
Thanks in advance, and may you all practice well&be happy !
I have had lots of disease-attacks while doing Ngondro,
some quite serious cases also.
( Have been doing the practises one year now,HH Karmapa Ngondro )
I feel this must be related to purification,i guess.
So,is there some texts/sayings/commentaries regarding such a situation?
Can´t seem to find anything myself - but i know i have read about it in the past.
This situation is not discouraging me at all, on the contrary, i got the feeling i´m on the
right track...strange-hahaha!
I think this situation is not so uncommon,but it would be nice with some input though,
as i´m completely alone with the practice, and with no access to a Lama.
Thanks in advance, and may you all practice well&be happy !
- Adamantine
- Former staff member
- Posts: 4027
- Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am
- Location: Space is the Place
Re: Disease-attacks while doing Ngondro
What have you been (or were you) focusing on while these physical symptoms manifested? Prostrations?togg wrote:Hi folks!
I have had lots of disease-attacks while doing Ngondro,
some quite serious cases also.
( Have been doing the practises one year now,HH Karmapa Ngondro )
I feel this must be related to purification,i guess.
So,is there some texts/sayings/commentaries regarding such a situation?
Can´t seem to find anything myself - but i know i have read about it in the past.
This situation is not discouraging me at all, on the contrary, i got the feeling i´m on the
right track...strange-hahaha!
I think this situation is not so uncommon,but it would be nice with some input though,
as i´m completely alone with the practice, and with no access to a Lama.
Thanks in advance, and may you all practice well&be happy !
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Re: Disease-attacks while doing Ngondro
This can happen due to Vajrasattva practice. Remember that once you have experienced ripened karma, you will not have to experience it again, so rejoice, and continue.togg wrote:Hi folks!
I have had lots of disease-attacks while doing Ngondro,
some quite serious cases also.
( Have been doing the practises one year now,HH Karmapa Ngondro )
I feel this must be related to purification,i guess.
So,is there some texts/sayings/commentaries regarding such a situation?
Can´t seem to find anything myself - but i know i have read about it in the past.
This situation is not discouraging me at all, on the contrary, i got the feeling i´m on the
right track...strange-hahaha!
I think this situation is not so uncommon,but it would be nice with some input though,
as i´m completely alone with the practice, and with no access to a Lama.
Thanks in advance, and may you all practice well&be happy !
Telepaths - I like to kill them
Re: Disease-attacks while doing Ngondro
Thanks both of you!
I´m doing a Prostrations,Refuge and Vajrasattva combo -
Ripening of karma,yes it must be that - good reason
for rejoiceing !
I´m doing a Prostrations,Refuge and Vajrasattva combo -
Ripening of karma,yes it must be that - good reason
for rejoiceing !
-
- Posts: 774
- Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 5:44 pm
Re: Disease-attacks while doing Ngondro
Personally, I had some pretty severe health problems when I was doing ngondro. Some orthopedic issues as well as some cardiac issues. The cardiac issues would cause me to get dizzy doing full prostrations at times, depending on how tired I was. So I told myself, well, dude, you can do no ngondro, because you want to do it perfect, or you can do some ngondro, though imperfect. As such, I completed all the other sections, some of them many times over, like guru yoga and Vajrasattva, but when it came to prostrations, I would do what I could do. I'd do full ones if I could. I'd do half ones if i couldn't do those. I'd to them kneeling if I couldn't do those. I'd just recite the prayer if I couldn't do those. My lama said that was the right thing to do, and gave me some additional homework to consider my ngondro "done".
Now that I'm working on the second set of ngondro, I realize that the whole process has healed by body. Now I can do more with my body in general, and my payback is to do it more perfect, and do more full prostrations, and more of them, but if I'm hurting, I back off.
I also found it very helpful to work more with bodhicitta during the prostrations, to focus on taking all beings to refuge with me. My mother on my left, my father on my right, my friends behind me, my enemies in front of me, and then, as I stand up with my hands over my head, visualizing bringing all beings to enlightenment. This really made me want to do more prostrations and made me endure the cardiac problems and orthopedic problems.
But that's just me. A heretic.
Now that I'm working on the second set of ngondro, I realize that the whole process has healed by body. Now I can do more with my body in general, and my payback is to do it more perfect, and do more full prostrations, and more of them, but if I'm hurting, I back off.
I also found it very helpful to work more with bodhicitta during the prostrations, to focus on taking all beings to refuge with me. My mother on my left, my father on my right, my friends behind me, my enemies in front of me, and then, as I stand up with my hands over my head, visualizing bringing all beings to enlightenment. This really made me want to do more prostrations and made me endure the cardiac problems and orthopedic problems.
But that's just me. A heretic.
Re: Disease-attacks while doing Ngondro
It's quite common actually! Sometimes teachers discourage talking too much about it, because it might get people worried, or we might make too much of a big thing out of it.
Many go, or have gone, through it, and it's definitely considered to be a good thing. After all, you're only experiencing a very mild effect of the negative karma that's coming out (even though it might feel big!). Much better than leaving it inside, and allowing it to manifest in much bigger ways in your future. So, keep up the good work, and rejoice!
Oh, and don't be fooled to believe that it 'only' happens with prostrations or Vajrasattva. Meanwhile, don't believe that those practices will only have unpleasant effects. All practices can have all kinds of effects
Many go, or have gone, through it, and it's definitely considered to be a good thing. After all, you're only experiencing a very mild effect of the negative karma that's coming out (even though it might feel big!). Much better than leaving it inside, and allowing it to manifest in much bigger ways in your future. So, keep up the good work, and rejoice!
Oh, and don't be fooled to believe that it 'only' happens with prostrations or Vajrasattva. Meanwhile, don't believe that those practices will only have unpleasant effects. All practices can have all kinds of effects
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
Re: Disease-attacks while doing Ngondro
There are various unconviniences I have to face in my ngöndro. I sensed especially difficulties when I did two practices at once (prostrations and mandala offerings daily). I reduced the mandalas and concentrated on prostrations now. This seems to be a good solution.
All these hindrances seem to be like rocks that have been thrown on my path. And the challenge is to find an efficient way to overcome them: walk around or climb them or even dig a tunnel?
I try different solutions: do less or more, even once I had to visualize the prostrations only for some days, because I couldn't move my back anymore. Just don't stopp, that's my only rule.
All these hindrances seem to be like rocks that have been thrown on my path. And the challenge is to find an efficient way to overcome them: walk around or climb them or even dig a tunnel?
I try different solutions: do less or more, even once I had to visualize the prostrations only for some days, because I couldn't move my back anymore. Just don't stopp, that's my only rule.
Re: Disease-attacks while doing Ngondro
So much good advice!
Thanks to all, i bow down.
What you good people say does really confirm what
i´ve been seeing myself…
Quoting Urgyen Dorje :
“ So I told myself, well, dude, you can do no ngondro, because you want to do it perfect, or you can do some ngondro, though imperfect.” yeah, i recongise that one!
“ I also found it very helpful to work more with bodhicitta during the prostrations, to focus on taking all beings to refuge with me. My mother on my left, my father on my right, my friends behind me, my enemies in front of me, and then, as I stand up with my hands over my head, visualizing bringing all beings to enlightenment. This really made me want to do more prostrations and made me endure the cardiac problems and orthopedic problems."
Oh yeah - so true! Bodhicitta ...
And Kelwin, i agree totally in all you say; but this one is priceless:
”All practices can have all kinds of effects “ Haha!
Thanks to all, i bow down.
What you good people say does really confirm what
i´ve been seeing myself…
Quoting Urgyen Dorje :
“ So I told myself, well, dude, you can do no ngondro, because you want to do it perfect, or you can do some ngondro, though imperfect.” yeah, i recongise that one!
“ I also found it very helpful to work more with bodhicitta during the prostrations, to focus on taking all beings to refuge with me. My mother on my left, my father on my right, my friends behind me, my enemies in front of me, and then, as I stand up with my hands over my head, visualizing bringing all beings to enlightenment. This really made me want to do more prostrations and made me endure the cardiac problems and orthopedic problems."
Oh yeah - so true! Bodhicitta ...
And Kelwin, i agree totally in all you say; but this one is priceless:
”All practices can have all kinds of effects “ Haha!
Re: Disease-attacks while doing Ngondro
Oops, I´ll have to correct myself a bit here, quoting myself from the first post:
“ as i´m completely alone with the practice, and with no access to a Lama.”
Not completly so ; The Lama is pretty difficult to accsess,far away and so on.. you know.
“ as i´m completely alone with the practice, and with no access to a Lama.”
Not completly so ; The Lama is pretty difficult to accsess,far away and so on.. you know.
Re: Disease-attacks while doing Ngondro
Hi again!
Quoting myself one more time:
“Is there some texts/sayings/commentaries regarding this?
Can´t seem to find any,myself…”
What i was thinking about was this, Lojong teaching i
studied about 15 years ago…how time flies..
Ahh, those old Kadampa masters - so wonderful!
(outlined by me )
The text “Leveling Out All Conceptual Thoughts,” is a lojong, or a text or practice that belongs to the mind training series. It is a text that Yangsi Rinpoche recommends that people study and try to put into practice.
Why Use This Text
Rinpoche states that until realization of emptiness happens, afflictive emotions arise. This text is a helpful in working with these emotions. It is a step by step instruction on focusing energy into one aspiration, instead of abusing energy. It is about organizaing and simplying one’s thought process, which can lead to transforming one’s experiences and emotions
The following version is transalted in Mind Training: The Great Collection, with translation by Thupten Jinpa (the principle translator for His Holiness the Dalai Lama):
Herein is contained a teaching conferred by Serlingpa to Atisa to help him subue the barbarian boderlands.
The guardian and teacher Serlingpa said to master Atisa, “Son, to subdue the barbarian borderlands, you wil need the following teachings”:
Level out all [false] conceptions;
Carry forth the foce of all antidotes;
Concentrate all Aspirations into one;
And seek the path where all paths converge–
These are the four enlightened factors, the antidotes.
They are vital if you are to tame barbarian borderlands;
They are essential, too, in the age of degeneration
To bear with misguided ways of negative companions
Adverse conditions are your spiritual teacher;
Demons and possessor spirits, the Buddha’s emanations;
Sickness is a broom for negative karma and defilements;
Sufferings are displays of ultimate reality’s expanse–
These are the four thoroughly afflicted factors;
They are vital if you are to tame the barbarian borderlands;
They are essential, too, in the era of degeneration
To bear with misguided ways of negative companions
This [training] is the great counterpoint to happiness;
This is the great successor to misery;
This is the charm that attracts misfortune;
And this is capping of wishes that are least useful —
These are the four antidotes to misguided ways;
They are vital if you are to tame the barbarian borderlands;
They are essential, too, in the age of degeneration,
To bear with misguided ways of negative companions
“Self” is the root of negative karma;
It is to be discarded decisively.
“Other” is a source of enlightenment;
It is to be embraced enthusiastically–
These two teachings draw the remedies to a close;
They are vital if you are to tame the barbarian borderlands;
They are essential, too, in the age of degeneration
To bear with misguided ways of negative companions.
Cast away decisively, let go with ease;
Dismantle thoroughly, and let be with gentleness–
These are the four aspects of the sealing of emptiness;
They are vital if you are to tame the barbarian borderlands.
They are essential, too, in the age of degeneration
To bear with misguided ways of negative companions.
If you engage in the practices in this way,
Beings will not be fettered but will attain freedom.
Thus it was taught.
http://clearemptymind.com/2014/01/26/le ... -thoughts/
Quoting myself one more time:
“Is there some texts/sayings/commentaries regarding this?
Can´t seem to find any,myself…”
What i was thinking about was this, Lojong teaching i
studied about 15 years ago…how time flies..
Ahh, those old Kadampa masters - so wonderful!
(outlined by me )
The text “Leveling Out All Conceptual Thoughts,” is a lojong, or a text or practice that belongs to the mind training series. It is a text that Yangsi Rinpoche recommends that people study and try to put into practice.
Why Use This Text
Rinpoche states that until realization of emptiness happens, afflictive emotions arise. This text is a helpful in working with these emotions. It is a step by step instruction on focusing energy into one aspiration, instead of abusing energy. It is about organizaing and simplying one’s thought process, which can lead to transforming one’s experiences and emotions
The following version is transalted in Mind Training: The Great Collection, with translation by Thupten Jinpa (the principle translator for His Holiness the Dalai Lama):
Herein is contained a teaching conferred by Serlingpa to Atisa to help him subue the barbarian boderlands.
The guardian and teacher Serlingpa said to master Atisa, “Son, to subdue the barbarian borderlands, you wil need the following teachings”:
Level out all [false] conceptions;
Carry forth the foce of all antidotes;
Concentrate all Aspirations into one;
And seek the path where all paths converge–
These are the four enlightened factors, the antidotes.
They are vital if you are to tame barbarian borderlands;
They are essential, too, in the age of degeneration
To bear with misguided ways of negative companions
Adverse conditions are your spiritual teacher;
Demons and possessor spirits, the Buddha’s emanations;
Sickness is a broom for negative karma and defilements;
Sufferings are displays of ultimate reality’s expanse–
These are the four thoroughly afflicted factors;
They are vital if you are to tame the barbarian borderlands;
They are essential, too, in the era of degeneration
To bear with misguided ways of negative companions
This [training] is the great counterpoint to happiness;
This is the great successor to misery;
This is the charm that attracts misfortune;
And this is capping of wishes that are least useful —
These are the four antidotes to misguided ways;
They are vital if you are to tame the barbarian borderlands;
They are essential, too, in the age of degeneration,
To bear with misguided ways of negative companions
“Self” is the root of negative karma;
It is to be discarded decisively.
“Other” is a source of enlightenment;
It is to be embraced enthusiastically–
These two teachings draw the remedies to a close;
They are vital if you are to tame the barbarian borderlands;
They are essential, too, in the age of degeneration
To bear with misguided ways of negative companions.
Cast away decisively, let go with ease;
Dismantle thoroughly, and let be with gentleness–
These are the four aspects of the sealing of emptiness;
They are vital if you are to tame the barbarian borderlands.
They are essential, too, in the age of degeneration
To bear with misguided ways of negative companions.
If you engage in the practices in this way,
Beings will not be fettered but will attain freedom.
Thus it was taught.
http://clearemptymind.com/2014/01/26/le ... -thoughts/
- ClearblueSky
- Posts: 465
- Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:27 am
Re: Disease-attacks while doing Ngondro
Just as everyone's saying, that's an okay sign to have, especially with a practice like Vajrasattva. Nonetheless, be sure to actually take care of the health problems... even if they're a good sign in the big picture, they're still health problems!
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Re: Disease-attacks while doing Ngondro
Good advice. We don't have Christian Science ideas.ClearblueSky wrote:...be sure to actually take care of the health problems... even if they're a good sign in the big picture, they're still health problems!
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Disease-attacks while doing Ngondro
Thanks for healthy advice!
- Adamantine
- Former staff member
- Posts: 4027
- Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am
- Location: Space is the Place
Re: Disease-attacks while doing Ngondro
Hi Togg, I had a mysterious digestive illness throughout the entire time I was accumulating prostrations during ngondro. I lost way too much weight, couldn't digest food well at all... No doctors could figure out the issue. As soon as I completed this section, the problem naturally resolved.
Prostrations purify the negative karmic accumulations we've developed over countless lifetimes that are related to the dimension of the body.
I hope this information is of some use.
Prostrations purify the negative karmic accumulations we've developed over countless lifetimes that are related to the dimension of the body.
I hope this information is of some use.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Re: Disease-attacks while doing Ngondro
It is not just doing ngondro which can provoke a kind of purification illness in people. I have had this happen twice in my life. The first time was after I took refuge and the second time was after simply visting Garchen Rinpoche's center in Arizona. In both instances, I was quite ill hours after being there.
It is interesting to me that both these occasions occurred after being at a Kagyu center. I don't know if there is a lineage component or not.
The Tibetan brand of buddhadharma is vast and mysterious. I certainly don't understand it all. I can't even say for sure that there is a causal relationship here. But it certainly seems so.
It is interesting to me that both these occasions occurred after being at a Kagyu center. I don't know if there is a lineage component or not.
The Tibetan brand of buddhadharma is vast and mysterious. I certainly don't understand it all. I can't even say for sure that there is a causal relationship here. But it certainly seems so.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.
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Re: Disease-attacks while doing Ngondro
The flip side of this question can also be true. You might finally get the job or girl you've always wanted. That's as much an obstacle as illness. Hence the + or - of money, sex, power and prestige to make the 8 worldly dharmas. The 4 thoughts are designed to counter this.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
- ClearblueSky
- Posts: 465
- Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:27 am
Re: Disease-attacks while doing Ngondro
Or those things can be as much of an obstacle might be better to say. When your job gets you that money you needed to donate more to the Sangha, and that girl is someone that inspires you to practice Dharma more... it's a different story. But you bring up a great point, there's always the flip side to anything. Even illness, I've been told is both a "good" and "bad" sign, by the same Lama, just under different circumstances.smcj wrote:The flip side of this question can also be true. You might finally get the job or girl you've always wanted. That's as much an obstacle as illness. Hence the + or - of money, sex, power and prestige to make the 8 worldly dharmas. The 4 thoughts are designed to counter this.