Ngondro of Karma Kagyu & Shangpa Kagyu -same?

[Potala]

Is the ngondro practice done by Karma Kagyu and Shangpa Kagyu the same text or different? Thanks.

[heart]

Is the ngondro practice done by Karma Kagyu and Shangpa Kagyu the same text or different? Thanks.

It is not the same.

/magnus

[conebeckham]

Yes and no.

Until recently, the Shangpa's true "ngondro" came after extensive yidam practice, just before six yogas. Most Shangpa practitioners did Kamtsang ngondro first.

Now there is a new "Shangpa ngondro" compiled by HE Situ Rinpoche at the request of Kalu Rinpoche Yangsi, and some are doing that instead of the Kamtsang ngondro. This is very recent. It is based on the Six Yogas ngondro with some additions, often derived from Kamtsang liturgy.

[Palzang Jangchub]

Cone, could you compare/contrast the Kamtsang and Shangpa ngöndros for us a bit? I'm sure I'm not the only one curious about this. For that matter, do you know of any substantial differences between this new text and the more traditional one, other than the timing of one practicing it?

[conebeckham]

I can't go into much detail, but the Shangpa's original "Ngakdon" of Niguma are short, and have a few big differences. The new Shangpa ngondro combines some of these key liturgical verses and adds liturgy common to the Kamtsang ngondro and other preliminary liturgies. The purification methods are completely different, the refuge differs in some important details, and the original Ngagdon contains ngondros for each of the six yogas, as well as chagchen ga'uma, the three lamkhyers, and the fruition practices.

In general, the new "ngondro" is much longer.