Differences between Chöd wang and TroNak wang?

User avatar
Karma Jinpa
Posts: 590
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:19 pm
Contact:

Differences between Chöd wang and TroNak wang?

Postby Karma Jinpa » Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:39 am

It seems that in the Drikung lineage there is a distinction made between Chöd wangs where the visualization is of Troma Nakmo, and wangs that are meant to empower one to practice the yidam deity sadhana of Troma Nakmo proper. Does anyone know the reason for this?

I had previously been led to understand that apart from the "Opening of the Sky Door" empowerment, there isn't a Chöd wang per se, and what most people receive for Chöd wang is actually Troma Nakmo wang, since she is often the deity visualized during Chöd lüjin (though in Nyingma lineages I have seen Dorje Phakmo wang given for visualization in Chöd practices).

Also, does anyone happen to know the lineage history of the Chöd wang that both Lho Ontul Rinpoche and Lamchen Gyalpo Rinpoche typically give? It's given for empowering the practice of the lüjin composed by Lho Nuden Dorje (after a Karma Kagyupa had requested it), and also for the extensive sadhana compiled by Gyalpo Rinpoche himself. It doesn't come from the Yangzab terma cycle, since there's no Chöd practice there, and it seems there isn't a Troma wang in the Fivefold Mahamudra lineage of Drikung either, from what i can tell, so I'm at a loss...
"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, it happens that a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་རཱ་ག་ཨ་སྱས་མཁྱེན་ནོ།
ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ


:namaste:

User avatar
heart
Posts: 3667
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Differences between Chöd wang and TroNak wang?

Postby heart » Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:00 am

This is the full translation of the Chod part of the Dam Ngak Dzö: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LXBJREV/re ... 80_TE_M1DP
As you can see in the empowerment section there is only "Opening the door of the sky" empowerments. So, this is the proper Chö empowerment. I am sure it can be helpful to have a Throma empowerment as well, but not necessary.

/magnus
We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.
~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,
You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.
So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,
That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

-Longchenpa

User avatar
lelopa
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:03 pm

Re: Differences between Chöd wang and TroNak wang?

Postby lelopa » Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:56 am

Lho Ongtrul Rinpoche recieved the chöd-wang that he gives in Drikung-Centers from Kalu Rinpoche (his own words).
So it is the "normal" Sky-Opener-Wang that you can also recieve in Karma Kagu-Centers, etc.!
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

User avatar
ratna
Posts: 230
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:32 pm

Re: Differences between Chöd wang and TroNak wang?

Postby ratna » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:26 pm

Karma Jinpa wrote:Also, does anyone happen to know the lineage history of the Chöd wang that both Lho Ontul Rinpoche and Lamchen Gyalpo Rinpoche typically give? It's given for empowering the practice of the lüjin composed by Lho Nuden Dorje (after a Karma Kagyupa had requested it), and also for the extensive sadhana compiled by Gyalpo Rinpoche himself. It doesn't come from the Yangzab terma cycle, since there's no Chöd practice there, and it seems there isn't a Troma wang in the Fivefold Mahamudra lineage of Drikung either, from what i can tell, so I'm at a loss...


I don't know what empowerment Lamchen Gyalpo Rinpoche gives, but the wang for the Rainbow Body Chod that Lho Ontul Rinpoche often gives comes from the terma of Lho Nuden Dorje.

R

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 21698
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Differences between Chöd wang and TroNak wang?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:00 pm

ratna wrote:
Karma Jinpa wrote:Also, does anyone happen to know the lineage history of the Chöd wang that both Lho Ontul Rinpoche and Lamchen Gyalpo Rinpoche typically give? It's given for empowering the practice of the lüjin composed by Lho Nuden Dorje (after a Karma Kagyupa had requested it), and also for the extensive sadhana compiled by Gyalpo Rinpoche himself. It doesn't come from the Yangzab terma cycle, since there's no Chöd practice there, and it seems there isn't a Troma wang in the Fivefold Mahamudra lineage of Drikung either, from what i can tell, so I'm at a loss...


I don't know what empowerment Lamchen Gyalpo Rinpoche gives, but the wang for the Rainbow Body Chod that Lho Ontul Rinpoche often gives comes from the terma of Lho Nuden Dorje.

R



It is the same.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

User avatar
heart
Posts: 3667
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Differences between Chöd wang and TroNak wang?

Postby heart » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:05 pm

I just wanted to mention that the two "opening the door to the sky" empowerments in the Dam Ngak Dzö one is from the Surmang tradition and the other one is from Taranatha.

/magnus
We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.
~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,
You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.
So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,
That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

-Longchenpa

User avatar
Karma Jinpa
Posts: 590
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:19 pm
Contact:

Re: Differences between Chöd wang and TroNak wang?

Postby Karma Jinpa » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:32 pm

ratna wrote: ... the wang for the Rainbow Body Chod that Lho Ontul Rinpoche often gives comes from the terma of Lho Nuden Dorje.

I'm not sure if it was the Rainbow Body Chöd we received empowerment for, since the teachings were on Chöd in general and the main text we were given transmission for wasn't that sadhana. It wasn't the Sky Door Opener, though, because Lamchen Gyalpo Rinpoche gave that and the same wang that Ontul Rinpoche had given previously, one right after the other.

However, this raises an entirely new question that hadn't occurred to me before. Since there's no Chöd in the Yangzab, the Rainbow Body Chöd wang indicates there are terma discovered by Lho Nuden Dorje that are separate from the Yangzab cycle, right? Is there more than one Chöd wang in his terma?

Also, still not quite clear on what differentiates a Chöd wang with Troma Nakmo visualization from a TroNak wang. Is it because Troma is only to be visualized in the specific practice of Chöd, and no yidam mantra is given? There is definitely self-visualization as the deity.
"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, it happens that a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་རཱ་ག་ཨ་སྱས་མཁྱེན་ནོ།
ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ


:namaste:

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4127
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Differences between Chöd wang and TroNak wang?

Postby conebeckham » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:20 pm

There are a variety or "Troma" practices, found in Dudjom Tersar, Rinchen Terdzo, DoJo BumZang, and elsewhere, as you know.

To my understanding, these are yidam practices, or primarily so, though often with associated rituals including "LuJin"--"offering of the body," which is what most people understand to be "chod practice."

"Opening the Sky Door"--(or "Opening the Gates of Space," or however one likes to translate it) is not a yidam practice; it is more akin to a special transmission of blessings, as well as an authorization, these days. It is concerned with the Fourth Empowerment, in HYT, we could say....and also related to Phowa. As Magnus said, there are two versions in DamNgak Dzo, and there are likely other versions which reflect the same basic principles.

In many systems of Lujin, Troma "self-visualization" is a feature or technique that may be employed for certain purposes. But this is not strictly equivalent to the practice of Troma as a yidam. Regarding the latter practice, there are a wide variety of Troma sadhanas, from the quite terse self-generations, to the system of Dudjom Tersar which is a complete cycle of techniques related to Dzogchen, and including Ngondro, Yidam practice, Lujin and the "Feasts," as well as TsaLung, Trekcho and Togal.

Simply put, if one wishes to practice "Chod," by which we usually mean "LuJin," one needs the transmission of Opening the Sky Door. A Troma wang is not needed for the purposes of doing certain wrathful feasts, etc.

If one wishes to practice Troma as a yidam, one would need to empowerments of whichever cycle of that practice one would be engaging in, at best. At least, some sort of specific Troma wang, I would think. Though there is the school of thinking that obtaining and practicing one major HYT cycle empowers all, in some sense...if one is going to take Troma as one's main practice, I think getting specific is a good idea.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."

May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.


Return to “Kagyu”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests