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 Post subject: Re: More Trungpa talk
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:54 pm 
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catmoon wrote:
I thought it wasn't bad really. Kinda controversial, but good poetry often is.


You are kind, but no illusions there about the quality of poetry. Was trying to come to terms with this vexing pattern: find someone who finally makes sense, then this feeling of sad betrayal, the slow seepage of toxic stuff: inexcusable ethical lapses even by the most benign of yard sticks. If one has understood the way out of suffering and is able to teach it well, shouldn't one be using their own guide book? Does it not make a lie of one's words if they live contrarily? I readied myself to throw out all, the master and the disciple until...

I walked into this shop in downtown Vancouver B.C. with the slimmest of book selections, and there was Pema Chodron looking serenely from atop a stone wall on a book cover that read, No Time to Lose. The barcode sticker in tiny letters said, Semperviva. Was I ready to throw out the truth because I found her mentor repulsive? Was it not the truth that Chodron had found a way to apply the very heart of Buddhist teachings, karuna, to her guide and moved past his flaws to discover inspired wisdom? In throwing her out as well, was I not running, until one day, I would have no room to stand?

Semperviva, always life, and therefore Chodron with her impeccable ethics and no-nonsense, hearfelt wisdom was ok, inspite of her mentor, this latest incarnation (figure of speech) from the mishap lineage*.

No, there was no time to lose and I picked up the book.

IS
Searching...

*mishap lineage: Chodron talks about Trungpa's lineage in The Wisdom of No Escape, so named because of Naropa, the intellectual snob, Marpa the drunk, Milarepa, the murderer. No conflict so far, in fact, I welcomed this lineage, for, after all, they seemed redeemed in the end. Not so, the last one, as far as I can tell. As far as I can tell, for who in the end has a handle on the truth? Is there the truth? Roshomon comes to mind.


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 Post subject: Re: More Trungpa talk
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:29 pm 
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Posts: 468
Eeshwarishankar wrote:
catmoon wrote:
I thought it wasn't bad really. Kinda controversial, but good poetry often is.


You are kind, but no illusions there about the quality of poetry. Was trying to come to terms with this vexing pattern: find someone who finally makes sense, then this feeling of sad betrayal, the slow seepage of toxic stuff: inexcusable ethical lapses even by the most benign of yard sticks. If one has understood the way out of suffering and is able to teach it well, shouldn't one be using their own guide book? Does it not make a lie of one's words if they live contrarily? I readied myself to throw out all, the master and the disciple until...

I walked into this shop in downtown Vancouver B.C. with the slimmest of book selections, and there was Pema Chodron looking serenely from atop a stone wall on a book cover that read, No Time to Lose. The barcode sticker in tiny letters said, Semperviva. Was I ready to throw out the truth because I found her mentor repulsive? Was it not the truth that Chodron had found a way to apply the very heart of Buddhist teachings, karuna, to her guide and moved past his flaws to discover inspired wisdom? In throwing her out as well, was I not running, until one day, I would have no room to stand?

Semperviva, always life, and therefore Chodron with her impeccable ethics and no-nonsense, hearfelt wisdom was ok, inspite of her mentor, this latest incarnation (figure of speech) from the mishap lineage*.

No, there was no time to lose and I picked up the book.

IS
Searching...

*mishap lineage: Chodron talks about Trungpa's lineage in The Wisdom of No Escape, so named because of Naropa, the intellectual snob, Marpa the drunk, Milarepa, the murderer. No conflict so far, in fact, I welcomed this lineage, for, after all, they seemed redeemed in the end. Not so, the last one, as far as I can tell. As far as I can tell, for who in the end has a handle on the truth? Is there the truth? Roshomon comes to mind.


Thanks for this post.

Yes, the mishap lineage. Dogen Zenji called practice "one continuous mistake".

I've been thinking about this "continuous mistake" business. I heard a zen teacher in Dogen's lineage call life a continuous mistake recently and at first I was upset because I thought he was misquoting Dogen. And then I realized his statement was deliberate and he was saying something perhaps a little more profound.

As a westerner, I have been grappling with my own intolerance and judgemental mind. My holier-than-thou ness. The aspects of my own mind that wants to condemn, exclude, excoriate others. Even a basic course in Psychology 101 can tell you what that's about.

But life as a continous mistake, life as one mishap after another. Gee whiz, those are the very conditions in which we practice. Those are the very circumstances of living. Mistakes, mishaps. I don't know about anyone else but my life is full of them.

Maybe yours isn't.

I never met Trungpa Rinpoche. I was not his student. But the most important thing I read in this thread was the statement by one of his students that he [Trungpa] "never hid anything from us". This is an incredibly valuable quality. In an age of duplicity and a tradition full of secrecy and intrigue, this stands out for me.

Does it redeem his behaviour? Not exactly. But imitating a teachers behaviour is not what practicing is about. Practice is about the realization of your own body, speech and mind. In the context of a life lived.

:anjali:


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 Post subject: Re: More Trungpa talk
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:43 pm 
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Posts: 5
MalaBeads wrote:
Eeshwarishankar wrote:
catmoon wrote:
I thought it wasn't bad really. Kinda controversial, but good poetry often is.


You are kind, but no illusions there about the quality of poetry. Was trying to come to terms with this vexing pattern: find someone who finally makes sense, then this feeling of sad betrayal, the slow seepage of toxic stuff: inexcusable ethical lapses even by the most benign of yard sticks. If one has understood the way out of suffering and is able to teach it well, shouldn't one be using their own guide book? Does it not make a lie of one's words if they live contrarily? I readied myself to throw out all, the master and the disciple until...

I walked into this shop in downtown Vancouver B.C. with the slimmest of book selections, and there was Pema Chodron looking serenely from atop a stone wall on a book cover that read, No Time to Lose. The barcode sticker in tiny letters said, Semperviva. Was I ready to throw out the truth because I found her mentor repulsive? Was it not the truth that Chodron had found a way to apply the very heart of Buddhist teachings, karuna, to her guide and moved past his flaws to discover inspired wisdom? In throwing her out as well, was I not running, until one day, I would have no room to stand?

Semperviva, always life, and therefore Chodron with her impeccable ethics and no-nonsense, hearfelt wisdom was ok, inspite of her mentor, this latest incarnation (figure of speech) from the mishap lineage*.

No, there was no time to lose and I picked up the book.

IS
Searching...

*mishap lineage: Chodron talks about Trungpa's lineage in The Wisdom of No Escape, so named because of Naropa, the intellectual snob, Marpa the drunk, Milarepa, the murderer. No conflict so far, in fact, I welcomed this lineage, for, after all, they seemed redeemed in the end. Not so, the last one, as far as I can tell. As far as I can tell, for who in the end has a handle on the truth? Is there the truth? Roshomon comes to mind.


Thanks for this post.

Yes, the mishap lineage. Dogen Zenji called practice "one continuous mistake".

I've been thinking about this "continuous mistake" business. I heard a zen teacher in Dogen's lineage call life a continuous mistake recently and at first I was upset because I thought he was misquoting Dogen. And then I realized his statement was deliberate and he was saying something perhaps a little more profound.

As a westerner, I have been grappling with my own intolerance and judgemental mind. My holier-than-thou ness. The aspects of my own mind that wants to condemn, exclude, excoriate others. Even a basic course in Psychology 101 can tell you what that's about.

But life as a continous mistake, life as one mishap after another. Gee whiz, those are the very conditions in which we practice. Those are the very circumstances of living. Mistakes, mishaps. I don't know about anyone else but my life is full of them.

Maybe yours isn't.

I never met Trungpa Rinpoche. I was not his student. But the most important thing I read in this thread was the statement by one of his students that he [Trungpa] "never hid anything from us". This is an incredibly valuable quality. In an age of duplicity and a tradition full of secrecy and intrigue, this stands out for me.

Does it redeem his behaviour? Not exactly. But imitating a teachers behaviour is not what practicing is about. Practice is about the realization of your own body, speech and mind. In the context of a life lived.

:anjali:


Don't think judgement and intolerance are confined to the Western mind, they seem to be the universal human condition. Right about life being mishap-laden: big and small for all of us. Life is dancing with with two left feet? I think the quote goes. Trungpa "never hid anything from us," may/may not be true.
IS.


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 Post subject: Re: More Trungpa talk
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:00 pm 
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Posts: 2552
I was a student of CTR's from the mid-60's when he was still in the robe. I last saw him some time before his death.
I have met many Buddhist teachers of various traditions.
Comparisons are odious as Oscar said...
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche was the most awake and aware person I have ever met..in sickness or health..sober or otherwise. He was gloriously, blazingly..fearlessly.. Awake.

Thats all.

I will now shuffle back to the shadows..

:namaste:


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 Post subject: Re: More Trungpa talk
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:17 pm 
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Simon E. wrote:
I was a student of CTR's from the mid-60's when he was still in the robe. I last saw him some time before his death.
I have met many Buddhist teachers of various traditions.
Comparisons are odious as Oscar said...
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche was the most awake and aware person I have ever met..in sickness or health..sober or otherwise. He was gloriously, blazingly..fearlessly.. Awake.

Thats all.

I will now shuffle back to the shadows..

:namaste:


Shuffling back to the shadows... :lol:
Thanks for that snapshot of Trungpa, obviously, the man had layers, a la Shrek! Also, everything in life is both true and untrue, don't know who said that.
IS.


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 Post subject: Re: More Trungpa talk
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:27 am 
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MalaBeads wrote:
I never met Trungpa Rinpoche. I was not his student. But the most important thing I read in this thread was the statement by one of his students that he [Trungpa] "never hid anything from us". This is an incredibly valuable quality. In an age of duplicity and a tradition full of secrecy and intrigue, this stands out for me.


What, however, do you make of the stories of cocaine abuse, which, if true, was indeed hidden from all but a very close circle?

Like most historical "facts", proof is rarely conclusive, but the stories do fit the facts of his personality changes and lifestyle rather well.

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 Post subject: Re: More Trungpa talk
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:08 pm 
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Posts: 468
Quote:
What, however, do you make of the stories of


Actually, I don't make anything of them.

Stories are like tar. The more you step in them, the more you become mired in what is essentially the past, and at least in my mind, irrelevant.

I like the Idea that nothing was hidden. But if things were hidden, so be it. Either way, it makes no difference to me. I'm not so interested in the past.


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 Post subject: Re: More Trungpa talk
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:05 am 
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For or against, it is all wooden tops for the fire. :stirthepot:

I wonder how many old flames are ever extinguished . . .
This then is the potential - to learn from what is thought . . . :woohoo:

Guru or gnu - Nothing Knew :rolling:

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 Post subject: Re: More Trungpa talk
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:30 pm 
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No doubt in my mind that Trungpa Rinpoche was the real deal. I know dear students of his who are still with him. He was a fascinating man.

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The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


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 Post subject: Re: More Trungpa talk
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:18 am 
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Simon E. wrote:
I was a student of CTR's from the mid-60's when he was still in the robe. I last saw him some time before his death.
I have met many Buddhist teachers of various traditions.
Comparisons are odious as Oscar said...
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche was the most awake and aware person I have ever met..in sickness or health..sober or otherwise. He was gloriously, blazingly..fearlessly.. Awake.

Thats all.

I will now shuffle back to the shadows..

:namaste:


:good:

You seem to have had a long and interesting life in the Dharma Simon, would be interesting to hear more about it.

/magnus

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"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa


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 Post subject: Re: More Trungpa talk
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:28 am 
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Long certainly. Interesting ? Possibly.
But my own view of Dharma differs radically from that of this Forum.
There is no gain to be had in ignoring that. Folk just get annoyed. And then have to deny the fact that they are annoyed.. :smile:
No I will stick to " read only " mode...

Good wishes to you Magnus... :namaste:


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 Post subject: Re: More Trungpa talk
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:30 pm 
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Simon E. wrote:
Long certainly. Interesting ? Possibly.
But my own view of Dharma differs radically from that of this Forum.
There is no gain to be had in ignoring that. Folk just get annoyed. And then have to deny the fact that they are annoyed.. :smile:
No I will stick to " read only " mode...

Good wishes to you Magnus... :namaste:


Well we certainly had some discussions you and me but I don't think my own views of Dharma reflect most peoples view on this forum either. It seems to me that our experience, our personal Dharma history, are a lot about how we been working with circumstances in our life and how we gained confidence in the Dharma. So, in a way there is some teaching there by just telling it from the heart and sharing parts of it might actually be a kind of compassionate action, also to yourself.

With respect
/magnus

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"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa


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 Post subject: Re: More Trungpa talk
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:38 pm 
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Nicely said Magnus. I also hope Simon will start posting again.

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The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


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 Post subject: Re: More Trungpa talk
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:26 am 
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I don't mind the criticisms by followers (who never met him) of other lamas who had a history with Trungpa, I actually admire the extent of their loyalty to their gurus, which however should not sanction attacking a major contemporary Terton. Many of the critics who did meet Trungpa though seem to have softened their stance or changed their views outright. The couple who claimed to be Avant-garde and modern writers and refused to get naked like everyone else on a certain night round a camp fire dance or whatever and were just watching as voyeurs and who were made naked by force, actually dismissed the whole thing a few years ago to a large extent IIRC from an interview and admitted changing their mind essentially. Maybe they finally did become Avant-garde and modern!

Funnily enough a handful of Buddhist followers of Trungpa after many years seem to be upset with him all of a sudden and have switched from praising him to criticize him. Maybe they just didn't like the way he handled them. Or maybe the Terton had clarity to see those few would fall later in this lifetime. Or both, who knows the ways of a siddha's wisdom. But the overwhelming majority of his students who are alive seem to progress superbly on the path and their devotion and realization of him and Buddhism's essence or nature of mind just keeps increasing IMO from what they write or say in interviews on the chronicles website. Well done to those pioneering western practitioner disciples of the magnificent Terton who are excellent unfailing role models for the rest of us.

http://www.chronicleproject.com/

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Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes


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 Post subject: Re: More Trungpa talk
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:39 am 
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Allow me small contemplation: Meditation is to know my mind, my neurosisses are to know others.
Wise insult ego, to liberation of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW7MWq7v ... =endscreen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWZ-ADaV ... 6AF4A1559F

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 Post subject: Re: More Trungpa talk
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:36 am 
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Andrew108 wrote:
Nicely said Magnus. I also hope Simon will start posting again.

Well somehow for good or ill :o I seem to have slipped back in...

My own thoughts and feelings have veered from one side of the ship to the other over the years since CTR's death.

I had a long period of anger and feeling utterly let down and disillusioned. I also had a period of defending his memory and being in denial.
Now I simply see him as a phenomenon. A force of nature of a like that I will not see again..and thats a relief.
At his funeral a friend in one of the eulogies said " I never knew anyone who did so much harm..or so much good."
I cant add anything to that. Great harm and great good. Both..not resolvable.

:namaste:


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 Post subject: Re: More Trungpa talk
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:41 am 
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Good to see you posting Simon. I understand where you are coming from. Personally I feel Trungpa Rinpoche is still around.

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The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


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 Post subject: Re: More Trungpa talk
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:07 pm 
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AdmiralJim wrote:
Quote:
...also considering ordaining in the Kagyu lineage and I have to say that if I ever have the privilege of teaching, I hope that I won't get put onto some sort of idealized pedestal, I want my students to argue and say I am wrong.

I wish you well in your aspiration to be a Scottish Buddhist monk. Scotland and Tibet have a very long history of friendship going back to George Bogle of Daldowie (1746-1781) who married a Tibetan princess, and introduced potato farming to the Tibetan plateau. He studied for a year with the 6th Panchen Lama at Tashilhunpo, and later built him a temple on the banks of the Ganges.
'When I look upon the time I have spent among the Hills it appears like a fairy dream.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Bogle_(diplomat)
A dream shared by many other Scots...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Alfred_Bell
http://www.iias.nl/iiasn/24/regions/24CA6.html ...
His Holiness the Dalai Lama described the Tibetan activist Dr. Richardson as, 'very precious to us'. As for His Holiness, according to the Scottish press...
'His Holiness is a big fan of Scotland. He loves bagpipes and Dundee cake and starts every day at 4am with prayers and porridge. He first heard the sound of the bagpipes in Tibet and the first song he learned was Auld Lang Syne. He has few material possessions but they include a collection of tartan scarves and a tartan bag he’s carried around the world for years..'
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 Post subject: Re: More Trungpa talk
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:40 pm 
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JinpaRangdrol wrote:
HH Penor Rinpoche said that "Jetsunma" Akhon Lhamo is a Tulku...and Stephen Segal...there needs to be a difference between faith in a Vajra Master and faith in a cult leader...questions and concerns about their validity...examine the Guru, because they are the mould that shapes your enlightened form.

I've received teachings from Chungdrag Dorje (Steven Seagal), and I have no problem with him as 'a mould'.
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:namaste:


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 Post subject: Re: More Trungpa talk
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:53 pm 
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I feel a bit strange about the controversy given my refuge name ... I respect all views ...

His Collected Works are about as good as it gets IMHO given they are written from POV of the western reader. Apart from his terma writings which I don't feel connection to.

"His entire life was a pointing out instruction ..." I don't know.

Yes - perhaps even if only in the sense that it was a question: "You ask if this is really just a big game for charlatans and hypocrites? Well only you can decide, you make this real - so go practise". Practise, practise, practise.

I bow - to all those who suffer harm, and to the lineage, and to all lineages.

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