Overview on Sakya-Teachings?

[tobias]

Hello,
I just read something on Lamdre. So now I think I have got an overview on Lamdre. Though Lamdre is the core Teaching of Sakya there are other unique teachings mentioned such as collection of Sadhana or collection of tantra. Could you please give an overview on that? Maybe overview is not the right word. but a tiny information on it?

I just want to understand the principal of these methods to compare it with other cycles of other schools

Greetings
tobias

[maybay]

Practicing in Sakya is like being a good investor. You have a keen eye for value and you're typically conservative and prepared to study a lot. You aim for comprehensiveness and fidelity to tradition.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Only been practicing a few years, so don't know much, but one thing i've noticed is that Ngondro seems to be treated differently, in that it is not really a pre requisite for things the way I understand it to be in other schools. Hevajra is a pretty big deal AFAIK. I think i've had Freedom From Extremes by Gorampa recommended as reading.

[kirtu]

Only been practicing a few years, so don't know much, but one thing i've noticed is that Ngondro seems to be treated differently, in that it is not really a pre requisite for things the way I understand it to be in other schools. Hevajra is a pretty big deal AFAIK.

Ngondro is not a pre-requisite for practice in Sakya (isn't ngondro really only a pre-requisite only in Karma Kagyu?) . Hevajra empowerment is and is followed then by other empowerments and teaching esp. Lamdre. Nonetheless ngondro is an important practice and Sakya lamas do teach it as a foundational practice. Sakya lamas want students to complete ngondro.

Kirt

[WeiHan]

Not sure if my understanding is correct.

Lam Dre is the most detailed and comprehensive Tantric Mahamudra system in its orginal Indian form to be ever preserved in Tibetan Buddhism. We know for example Gelugpa has its Tantric Mahamudra system but its system is a later development and draws its sources from many orginal Indian sources.

[tobias]

Hey,
my question was not so much on Lamdre I know about Lamdre. but on other important Teachings HHST often mentioned. Such as collection of Sadhana or collection of Tantra.

greetings tobias

[tobias]

@ all
maybe my question was not so clear.

I'm interestested role of the different teaching cycles in the relationship between the different collections.

In my view. Lamdre is a very complete cycle consisting of parts of Sutra, Tantra and Mahamudra.

So ok. Ngöndro is also nessesery though it seems to be a bit different than in Kaguy or Gelug. (btw. I also know Dzogchen teachings that are quite similar. First deal with nature of mind Treckchöd/Thögal and than you stable that "view" with Ngondro)

but though Lamdre is so complete, there are other cycles such as collection of sadhana, collection of tantra or 13 golden Dharmas. I know that Sakyas have a the view to keep contents secretly. I respect that. So I don't want to discuss contents in detail. but in my view Lamdre teachings+Ngondro would be enough to practise for the whole life time. They are complete. So maybe not everybody has the opportunity to receive Lamdre teachings. So there are alternatives needed. but what is the differents between p.e. 13 golden Dharmas and collection of Sadhana or the collection of tantra?

I mean I know nearly nothing about it. So in my view as a "stranger" there is a danger of "spiritual materialism". cause there a a lack of information. You could say " I need this teaching than also that though I don't know the differences between them but they are blissfull for sure."

And in the end you got a lot of samyas to keep and a lot of duties to practise different things, so the single practise might be not so effective, cause you don't have enough energy

greetings
tobias

[Ivo]

I won't answer in full the OP question, as the answer could be really extensive and difficult, but I want to correct something which is not entirely true here. Tantric ngondro as is practiced in Kagyu and Nyingma has never existed in Sakya until a couple of decades ago, so to say that it is important in Sakya is a gross overstatement. The only existing Sakya ngondro was composed by the late Deshung Rinpoche on the request of some students who wanted to have in Sakya the equivalent of the ngondro practiced in the other traditions. That's it. A couple of other Sakya lamas started teaching it afterwards but it is by no means required, or seen as very important and it is not really connected to any cycle per se, although it ends with a Sapan Guru Yoga, which is considered very precious in the tradition.

If we speak about Lam Dre, for example, there is no real need for ngondro, as the "preparation" parts of the teachings are so detailed and extensive that in fact one is doing much more than a traditional ngondro, although in a different way. If for example one follows NKL's exposition of the Lam Dre Tsog She and does all the meditations connected with the samsaric vision - there are some 30+ meditation practices which should be done until signs arise and are all meant to prepare one for the tantric path. As for the other Sakya cycles, some contain ngondro "elements", like Vajrasattva etc. but this is nothing out of the ordinary, as these things are contained in many Anuttarayoga tantras themselves. As Ngondro in it's present form is quite a recent phenomenon even in the other schools, there is no wonder why it is not really part of Sakya, which is a tradition famed for preserving the purity of it's original transmissions. It basically appeared there only because fashion dictated it. The Deshung Rinpoche ngondro is a nice one, but if I am personally to chose between counting things and doing the Lam Dre practices by signs, I would definitely chose the latter, although it is more difficult.

[Malcolm]

I won't answer in full the OP question, as the answer could be really extensive and difficult, but I want to correct something which is not entirely true here. Tantric ngondro as is practiced in Kagyu and Nyingma has never existed in Sakya until a couple of decades ago, so to say that it is important in Sakya is a gross overstatement. The only existing Sakya ngondro was composed by the late Deshung Rinpoche on the request of some students who wanted to have in Sakya the equivalent of the ngondro practiced in the other traditions. That's it. A couple of other Sakya lamas started teaching it afterwards but it is by no means required, or seen as very important and it is not really connected to any cycle per se, although it ends with a Sapan Guru Yoga, which is considered very precious in the tradition.

Ngondro in Sakya is connected with one's sadhana practice and done within that context, adding mandala and guru yoga in their appropriate places.

For example, the lengthy Ngondro commentary by twentieth century Nalendra master, Ngalo Khechen, does not present an independent ngondro text, but rather, frames the ngondro recitations within the context of the Hevajra sadhanas, and also includes the manner of doing Ngondro for Naro Khachod, Yamantaka and Tsembupa Chenrezi. According to him, for example, prostrations are better done with the guru yoga accumulation, not refuge.

Nevertheless, in Sakya, the idea of counting accumulations is a rather modern innovations. In the past, when embarking on a long retreat, one would devote some weeks or months to ngondro.

Deshung Tulku's ngondro is indeed a modern composition, and is influenced by Kongtrul's ngondro, but it is not the classical way Ngondro in Sakya has been done.

Ngalo Khenchen's text is highly influenced by Paltrul Rinpoche, containing long passages quoted from kun bzang bla ma'i zhal lung.

[Karma Dorje]

Malcolm, which of the Sakya ngondro were you commissioned to translate? Will that be published in the near future?

[Malcolm]

Malcolm, which of the Sakya ngondro were you commissioned to translate? Will that be published in the near future?

Khenchen Ngalo's text. The translation is finished, it will be released sometime, but at this point it is not easy to say when.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Malcolm, which of the Sakya ngondro were you commissioned to translate? Will that be published in the near future?

Khenchen Ngalo's text. The translation is finished, it will be released sometime, but at this point it is not easy to say when.

Wow, awesome.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Only been practicing a few years, so don't know much, but one thing i've noticed is that Ngondro seems to be treated differently, in that it is not really a pre requisite for things the way I understand it to be in other schools. Hevajra is a pretty big deal AFAIK.

Ngondro is not a pre-requisite for practice in Sakya (isn't ngondro really only a pre-requisite only in Karma Kagyu?) . Hevajra empowerment is and is followed then by other empowerments and teaching esp. Lamdre. Nonetheless ngondro is an important practice and Sakya lamas do teach it as a foundational practice. Sakya lamas want students to complete ngondro.

Kirt

I don't know Kirt, judging from many of the posts on DW (including many I got when I was asking about things like Chenrezig practice a few years ago), it's sacrilege to do much of anything, ever without having completed a Ngondro . Seriously though, I didn't mean to imply that I had some perception that Ngondro wasn't important in Sakya, only that in comparing my own (albeit limited) experiences thus far in Sakya to those of people I know who practice in Nyingma or Kagyu, Ngondro seems to occupy a little different space. If that's inaccurate i'm happy to be corrected, i'm speaking from a place of my own experiences, and certainly not any kind of expertise.

[BrianG]

Seriously though, I didn't mean to imply that I had some perception that Ngondro wasn't important in Sakya, only that in comparing my own (albeit limited) experiences thus far in Sakya to those of people I know who practice in Nyingma or Kagyu, Ngondro seems to occupy a little different space. If that's inaccurate i'm happy to be corrected, i'm speaking from a place of my own experiences, and certainly not any kind of expertise.

My feeling, which comes from my own limited experience -
Other traditions - Complete ngondro, then enter the Mandala.
Sakya - Enter the Mandala, then start ngondro.

The nice thing about the Sakya approach, is that it's very holistic, ngondro practice supports sadhana practice, and sadhana practice supports ngondro practice.

[WeiHan]

I have a question regarding Hevajra's six limbs sadhana.

Is it by itself a Guru Yoga sadhana since it includes receiving a detailed empowerment from the three seats.

[WeiHan]

@ all
maybe my question was not so clear.

I'm interestested role of the different teaching cycles in the relationship between the different collections.

In my view. Lamdre is a very complete cycle consisting of parts of Sutra, Tantra and Mahamudra.

So ok. Ngöndro is also nessesery though it seems to be a bit different than in Kaguy or Gelug. (btw. I also know Dzogchen teachings that are quite similar. First deal with nature of mind Treckchöd/Thögal and than you stable that "view" with Ngondro)

but though Lamdre is so complete, there are other cycles such as collection of sadhana, collection of tantra or 13 golden Dharmas. I know that Sakyas have a the view to keep contents secretly. I respect that. So I don't want to discuss contents in detail. but in my view Lamdre teachings+Ngondro would be enough to practise for the whole life time. They are complete. So maybe not everybody has the opportunity to receive Lamdre teachings. So there are alternatives needed. but what is the differents between p.e. 13 golden Dharmas and collection of Sadhana or the collection of tantra?

I mean I know nearly nothing about it. So in my view as a "stranger" there is a danger of "spiritual materialism". cause there a a lack of information. You could say " I need this teaching than also that though I don't know the differences between them but they are blissfull for sure."

And in the end you got a lot of samyas to keep and a lot of duties to practise different things, so the single practise might be not so effective, cause you don't have enough energy

greetings
tobias

I have definitely read an interview of HH Sakya Trizin giving an outline of all Sakya's teachings but I couldn't locate that interview for now.

[conebeckham]

Seriously though, I didn't mean to imply that I had some perception that Ngondro wasn't important in Sakya, only that in comparing my own (albeit limited) experiences thus far in Sakya to those of people I know who practice in Nyingma or Kagyu, Ngondro seems to occupy a little different space. If that's inaccurate i'm happy to be corrected, i'm speaking from a place of my own experiences, and certainly not any kind of expertise.

My feeling, which comes from my own limited experience -
Other traditions - Complete ngondro, then enter the Mandala.
Sakya - Enter the Mandala, then start ngondro.

The nice thing about the Sakya approach, is that it's very holistic, ngondro practice supports sadhana practice, and sadhana practice supports ngondro practice.

Actually, in Kagyu many sadhanas have pretty elaborate "ngondro" as well..so it's more like "complete (stand-alone) ngondro and then continue doing it as part of one's mandala/yidam practice."

Shangpa tradition is: "Enter mandala, complete yidam practice accumulations, THEN do advanced Ngondro."

[heart]

In the Nyingma practically every Ngondro is the Ngondro of a particular cycle of teachings, not really any standalone Ngondro. Also, the very well known Karma Kamtsang Ngondro is actually a Mahamudra Ngondro which can be understood in the writings of the 9th Karmapa.

/magnus

[BrianG]

I have a question regarding Hevajra's six limbs sadhana.

Is it by itself a Guru Yoga sadhana since it includes receiving a detailed empowerment from the three seats.

This is probably a better question for the "Buddhist Tantra Talk" forum.