Re: Is Lamdre just a branch of Mahamudra?

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Re: Is Lamdre just a branch of Mahamudra?

Postby LunaRoja » Sun May 20, 2012 4:15 am

Banned wrote:My understanding is that Virupa's lineage descends from Mahamudra.

Is Lamdre just a branch of Mahamudra?


No it is much deeper than that it is the path and the fruit, the indivisible nature of Samsara and Nirvana.
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Re: Is Lamdre just a branch of Mahamudra?

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 20, 2012 4:35 am

LunaRoja wrote:
Banned wrote:My understanding is that Virupa's lineage descends from Mahamudra.

Is Lamdre just a branch of Mahamudra?


No it is much deeper than that it is the path and the fruit, the indivisible nature of Samsara and Nirvana.


The result of Lamdre is mahāmudra. It is not deeper than mahāmudra.

M
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Is Lamdre just a branch of Mahamudra?

Postby LunaRoja » Sun May 20, 2012 4:40 am

Malcolm wrote:
LunaRoja wrote:
Banned wrote:My understanding is that Virupa's lineage descends from Mahamudra.

Is Lamdre just a branch of Mahamudra?


No it is much deeper than that it is the path and the fruit, the indivisible nature of Samsara and Nirvana.


The result of Lamdre is mahāmudra. It is not deeper than mahāmudra.

M


It is not the same as Kagyu Mahamudra, I thought it was from the unique point of view of the 3 Visions.
Last edited by LunaRoja on Sun May 20, 2012 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Lamdre just a branch of Mahamudra?

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 20, 2012 4:43 am

LunaRoja wrote:
It is not the same as Kagyu Mahamudra I thought it was from the unique point of view of the 3 Visions.


Mahāmudra is one of the three tantras, the result tantra.

Sutra Mahāmudra = union of clarity and emptiness
Tantric mahāmudra = the result tantra
Essence mahāmudra = the inseperability of samsara and nirvana
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Is Lamdre just a branch of Mahamudra?

Postby LunaRoja » Sun May 20, 2012 4:46 am

Malcolm wrote:
LunaRoja wrote:
It is not the same as Kagyu Mahamudra I thought it was from the unique point of view of the 3 Visions.


Mahāmudra is one of the three tantras, the result tantra.

Sutra Mahāmudra = union of clarity and emptiness
Tantric mahāmudra = the result tantra
Essence mahāmudra = the inseperability of samsara and nirvana


How does it differ from the Kagyu school?
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Re: Is Lamdre just a branch of Mahamudra?

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 20, 2012 5:19 am

LunaRoja wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
LunaRoja wrote:
It is not the same as Kagyu Mahamudra I thought it was from the unique point of view of the 3 Visions.


Mahāmudra is one of the three tantras, the result tantra.

Sutra Mahāmudra = union of clarity and emptiness
Tantric mahāmudra = the result tantra
Essence mahāmudra = the inseperability of samsara and nirvana


How does it differ from the Kagyu school?


Mainly it is just difference in lineage. Result is the same.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Is Lamdre just a branch of Mahamudra?

Postby LunaRoja » Sun May 20, 2012 7:54 am

Malcolm wrote:
LunaRoja wrote:
How does it differ from the Kagyu school?


Mainly it is just difference in lineage. Result is the same.

N


There are philosophical difference since Sapan did not believe in the pointing out instructions, but thought the great seal depended on initiation into a full Mandala. Sapan thought Mahamudra was totally free of concepts but criticized Gampopa's Mahamudra as just creating greater clarity and calm. He considered any sutra based non-tantric great seal to be impossible. Mahamudra in Sakya is depended on complete initiation into the Hevajra tantra. Now the Tsarpa Sakya I have been told do believe in pointing out instructions, but in general the Ngor and Khon lineages do not. So those are the major differences that I am aware of.
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Re: Is Lamdre just a branch of Mahamudra?

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 20, 2012 12:54 pm

LunaRoja wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
LunaRoja wrote:
How does it differ from the Kagyu school?


Mainly it is just difference in lineage. Result is the same.

N


There are philosophical difference since Sapan did not believe in the pointing out instructions...


Sure he did, he just felt is needed to be based on having already received the four full empowerments.

Sapan did not accept sutra mahāmudra as such -- but he opined that Mahāmudra could be realzied through either the two stages or through Guru Yoga.


but thought the great seal depended on initiation into a full Mandala. Sapan thought Mahamudra was totally free of concepts but criticized Gampopa's Mahamudra as just creating greater clarity and calm. He considered any sutra based non-tantric great seal to be impossible. Mahamudra in Sakya is depended on complete initiation into the Hevajra tantra. Now the Tsarpa Sakya I have been told do believe in pointing out instructions, but in general the Ngor and Khon lineages do not. So those are the major differences that I am aware of.


Vajrayogini has had a mahāmudra pointing out instruction from the beginning. It is in Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen's collected works. Therefore, the Ngor and Khon Lineages accept pointing out.

As you probably know, I was a Sakya pracitioner for many years.

As for the disctinction between the inseperability of clarity of the three visions and emptiness and sutra mahāmudra, this is just fighting over a name. The meaning of the two is the completely identical.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Is Lamdre just a branch of Mahamudra?

Postby Matylda » Sun May 20, 2012 3:07 pm

Malcolm wrote:As you probably know, I was a Sakya pracitioner for many years.

N



So did you give up sakya? In favor of ChNNR?
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Re: Is Lamdre just a branch of Mahamudra?

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 20, 2012 4:58 pm

Matylda wrote:
Malcolm wrote:As you probably know, I was a Sakya pracitioner for many years.

N



So did you give up sakya? In favor of ChNNR?


No, I did not give up Sakya. But ChNN has been my primary root guru since 1992.

I unify, I don't abandon.

M
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Is Lamdre just a branch of Mahamudra?

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 20, 2012 4:59 pm

Banned wrote:Virupa's back lineage is actually Mahamudra isn't it?



Virupa realized Mahāmudra.

M
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Is Lamdre just a branch of Mahamudra?

Postby LunaRoja » Sun May 20, 2012 5:47 pm

Malcolm wrote:
No, I did not give up Sakya. But ChNN has been my primary root guru since 1992.

I unify, I don't abandon.

M


I am curious how do you unify your Sakya practice with Dzogchen? I am assuming you maintain your Sakya commitments.
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Re: Is Lamdre just a branch of Mahamudra?

Postby Matylda » Sun May 20, 2012 5:49 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Matylda wrote:
Malcolm wrote:As you probably know, I was a Sakya pracitioner for many years.

N



So did you give up sakya? In favor of ChNNR?


No, I did not give up Sakya. But ChNN has been my primary root guru since 1992.

I unify, I don't abandon.

M


:smile:
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Re: Is Lamdre just a branch of Mahamudra?

Postby lama tsewang » Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:40 am

this question is probablyy mostly directed for Namdrol to answer . This will now be the fourth time I( will have attended a teaching on the Naro Khachod system , whenI attend Jetsun Kushogs teaching in August. I have read somewhere of a pointiong out instruction in the Vajrayogini system , but I am sure this was not part of the teachiing givwen by luding Ken in 1985 or two times since , with Jetsunma.
So my question is, how to go about asking for thios , should I give her atext and request it?
Or have a name for it?
Please help me out on this , Namdrol!!!
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