Oral Transmission of the Sutra of Golden Light

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lorem
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Oral Transmission of the Sutra of Golden Light

Post by lorem »

Sutra of Golden Light
while attending the Deer Park Summer Course, student Beth Simon (now known as Ven. Lobsang Tendron) made this request to Lama Zopa Rinpoche: “Please tell me what would please you”. Rinpoche told Beth to recite the Sutra of Golden Light and to tell her friends to recite it.

Rinpoche said, “This is what I want. This is what I ask. This will make me happy.” With that, Beth began to organize many helpful resources for those wishing to engage with Rinpoche’s request to recite this sutra.
Friends, if you wish to join in the recitation feel free. Congrats to Beth as it appears she got ordained!!! :bow:
I should be meditating.
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tomschwarz
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Re: Oral Transmission of the Sutra of Golden Light

Post by tomschwarz »

Thank you lorem! I will!
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA
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Lobsang Chojor
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Re: Oral Transmission of the Sutra of Golden Light

Post by Lobsang Chojor »

I've just watched this and I feel so much better for it.

phpBB [video]

I'll attach the video for easier viewing
:namaste:
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ
Malcolm
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Re: Oral Transmission of the Sutra of Golden Light

Post by Malcolm »

Manjushri Fan wrote:I've just watched this and I feel so much better for it.
It is not a lung because it isn't live.
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Lobsang Chojor
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Re: Oral Transmission of the Sutra of Golden Light

Post by Lobsang Chojor »

Malcolm wrote:It is not a lung because it isn't live.
This being said I find Lama Zopa very calming in his speech

Malcolm: As it's late in the UK so my question may seem offensive, I mean no disrespect becuase I know you are very knowledgable about Tibetan Buddhism and I value your input on any question I have. :namaste:

But, does this not fall down to views on whether a lung must be live, seen as Lama Zopa says:
Lama Zopa Rinpoche agreed to allow those who listen to a recording of Rinpoche giving the oral transmission to receive the transmission in full. You may receive this oral transmission by watching/listening to the video provided here or the audio linked to below. You must listen to the entire sutra in order to receive the full transmission from Lama Zopa Rinpoche.
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ
Malcolm
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Re: Oral Transmission of the Sutra of Golden Light

Post by Malcolm »

Manjushri Fan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:It is not a lung because it isn't live.
Malcolm: As it's late in the UK so my question may seem offensive, I mean no disrespect becuase I know you are very knowledgable about Tibetan Buddhism and I value your input on any question I have. :namaste:

But, does this not fall down to views on whether a lung must be live, seen as Lama Zopa says:
Lama Zopa Rinpoche agreed to allow those who listen to a recording of Rinpoche giving the oral transmission to receive the transmission in full. You may receive this oral transmission by watching/listening to the video provided here or the audio linked to below. You must listen to the entire sutra in order to receive the full transmission from Lama Zopa Rinpoche.
With all due respect to Lama Zopa, you cannot receive a lung from a recording. For example, you cannot turn on a lamp unless it is plugged into a wall, likewise, you cannot receive transmission from a recording.

Anyway, it is a sūtra, you don't need any special transmission for it.
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Lobsang Chojor
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Re: Oral Transmission of the Sutra of Golden Light

Post by Lobsang Chojor »

Malcolm wrote:With all due respect to Lama Zopa, you cannot receive a lung from a recording. For example, you cannot turn on a lamp unless it is plugged into a wall, likewise, you cannot receive transmission from a recording.

Anyway, it is a sūtra, you don't need any special transmission for it.
That is a very useful analogy and I do understand what you mean.

Yes as it is sūtra you do not need transmission but I find just listening to the teaching can focus my mind, which will have karmaic benefits along the line somewhere as my practice has improved
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ
Malcolm
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Re: Oral Transmission of the Sutra of Golden Light

Post by Malcolm »

Manjushri Fan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:With all due respect to Lama Zopa, you cannot receive a lung from a recording. For example, you cannot turn on a lamp unless it is plugged into a wall, likewise, you cannot receive transmission from a recording.

Anyway, it is a sūtra, you don't need any special transmission for it.
That is a very useful analogy and I do understand what you mean.

Yes as it is sūtra you do not need transmission but I find just listening to the teaching can focus my mind, which will have karmaic benefits along the line somewhere as my practice has improved
I never said it wasn't beneficial to listen to recordings of people chanting sūtras. I merely maintaining that the idea one can receive transmission from a recording is mistaken.
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Heterodox Garden
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Re: Oral Transmission of the Sutra of Golden Light

Post by Heterodox Garden »

Before everyone gets carried away here, let me just say this:

There are many, many, MANY threads on Dharma Wheel arguing about the status of lung, transmission, etc. regarding videos and recordings. In fact, some of them are among the most heated and the longest threads on this board. Most of them involve this very video and Lama Zopa, although there are others. Just run a search using keywords like "Lama Zopa", "Golden Light", "Transmission", etc. and you will see for yourself.

I personally am not qualified to offer any opinion on the subject either way, other than to note that on this messageboard, it is a frequent, endless, and sometimes bitter argument that never gets resolved.

I'm just trying to save you all the trouble of creating yet another 10-to-20-page thread on the same exact topic. Unless you want to. In that case, go right ahead.

:namaste:
Recommended reading material of recent interest:
写経 仏典を訓読してみませんか
http://gallerynyoze.web.fc2.com/syakyo.html
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Lobsang Chojor
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Re: Oral Transmission of the Sutra of Golden Light

Post by Lobsang Chojor »

Malcolm wrote: I never said it wasn't beneficial to listen to recordings of people chanting sūtras. I merely maintaining that the idea one can receive transmission from a recording is mistaken.
Many apologies for this I believe my wording was bad there, I was meaning that I agree with you and I was trying to state my personal experience in very ineffective tired terms. The lesson here is don't post at 00:30 wait for the morning when you are alert.

:namaste:
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ
ngodrup
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Re: Oral Transmission of the Sutra of Golden Light

Post by ngodrup »

So, therefore, returning to Malcom's statement, I believe it is summed up here:

"I never said it wasn't beneficial to listen to recordings of people chanting sūtras."

If people get some benefit, then I'm for all it. Likewise, my teachers support
people getting whatever benefits they can. And, in my view too, it is important
to distinguish when words are being used casually, colloquially, and not in a
technically correct way. It is not a contradiction to say something happens because
there is "some kind of connection" -- seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, tasting but
whatever it is, it is not a direct transmission.
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Heterodox Garden
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Re: Oral Transmission of the Sutra of Golden Light

Post by Heterodox Garden »

Somebody with more experience in such things than I once told me the word "transmission" is a slippery one in Vajrayana, and that there are multiple types of "transmissions." For example (according to this source), one could use the word in a literal sense in Tibetan (i.e., somebody reads something and some information is communicated to some other person), without the more formal connotations we usually associate with "lung."

I've always wondered about this; if true, Lama Zopa may be using the term in such sense, and merely reciting the text for general benefit rather than officially conferring a lung in a more formal sense.

This might be one way out of the question, but since my knowledge of the linguistic and theological nuances in this area is woefully lacking, I wonder if one of you could confirm or deny this idea?
Recommended reading material of recent interest:
写経 仏典を訓読してみませんか
http://gallerynyoze.web.fc2.com/syakyo.html
Lukeinaz
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Re: Oral Transmission of the Sutra of Golden Light

Post by Lukeinaz »

From Berzin:

"An oral transmission, according to my understanding, is of a text, not of a meditation. The custom arose in India from the time of the Buddha, when nothing was written down for the first three and a half, or four centuries after Buddha. None of his teachings were in written form; the teachings were all transmitted orally. People had to memorize them and then recite them.

So in order to study the teachings, you needed to have somebody who had memorized them before you, and listen to that person reciting it correctly, word for word, without any mistakes. One listened to this and had this transmission in order to have the confidence that you got the words of the teachings correctly. And if you listened to it often enough, or if you had a really good memory, you would be able to memorize it based on hearing other people recite it correctly. So it was very, very important; otherwise the text got corrupted if people didn’t remember them correctly and recite them correctly.

And the custom continued even once the texts were written down. Now the interesting thing here is that the person who gives an oral transmission of a text does not necessarily have to understand anything of the text that he or she is reciting. The only criterion is that they recite it correctly without making mistakes. So I must say, I found this very surprising, but what I’m saying is based on what His Holiness the Dalai Lama told me personally. I’ll tell you the story, it’s interesting:

(snip)

The question of course is how useful is it nowadays, and that is a difficult question. From the traditional point of view, it’s considered very important. I think it’s important from the point of view of feeling part of a lineage – continuity, authenticity, and so on – of at least the material."


The rest of it is here:
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... ipt_1.html

It seems that Lama Zopa is trying to preserve this tradition. I think it is fantastic you benefited from it!
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greenjonin
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Re: Oral Transmission of the Sutra of Golden Light

Post by greenjonin »

Malcolm wrote:
Manjushri Fan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:It is not a lung because it isn't live.
Anyway, it is a sūtra, you don't need any special transmission for it.
On the FPMT website, it states;

'Rinpoche explained that even people listening to the video streaming of the lung can take it as an oral transmission. By having received an oral transmission of the sutra, it becomes 100 times more powerful when you recite it.'
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