xkatz wrote:...if any members of either* would like to argue why they think they're school is "better" (better being purely subjective thing in this case) than the other. ...
xkatz wrote:I feel very torn between these two schools/sects. I see a lot of good and Dharma in both. I was wondering if any members of either* would like to argue why they think they're school is "better" (better being purely subjective thing in this case) than the other. I hope we can do this and be civil!
*If we don't have members of these groups, any from a similar group would suffice
Son of Buddha wrote:I disagreed with Ven Nichirens views concerning abandoning all other sutras accept the Lotus sutra.
For (1)the Lotus sutra states the sutras before it are provisional,it doesnt say to abandon the sutras that come after it(which are not provisional).
(2)while it does state the sutras that come before it are provisional(only partial knowledge)
It also doesnt say to abandon them either.
Now you will hear chapter 3 from the LS qouted,as justification for abandoning the provisional sutras,the problem with this is only a (sentence) is qouted leaving out the context of the
chapter(Examples of the types of people to preach the sutra too)
The entireity of the context is based on Examples not (orders)
If we were to say these are not examples but orders to abandon all the sutras,then this also means we we must follow all the "orders" that are listed at the end of the chapter,includeing the one that say to only preach this sutra to those who have no anger.
If this was an order then this sutra wouldnt be taught to anyone but the highest monks
As an (example of the types) which is the context.It is simply showing the Charachter(type) of person to preach to.
(also chapter 3 (examples of the types of people you are to preach to) was meant for Sapiputra,who stated he wasnt going to preach the LS in this world.so the entire context is not even for us to begin with but for those who are going to preach the LS in a different world(the Bodhisattvas of the earth is who taught the LS for us)
Having openly set aside skillful means,
I will teach only the highest path
To all the bodhisattvas.
(remember what the Lotus sutra says those who have faith in the LS can go to the Pureland of Amitabha Buddha)
If there is any woman ﬁve hundred years after the parinirvāṇa of the Tathāgata who hears this sutra and practices according to the teaching, she will immediately reach the dwelling of the Buddha Amitāyus in the Sukhāvatī world, surrounded by great bodhisattvas, and will be born on a jeweled seat in a lotus ﬂower.
If you wish to free yourself from the sufferings of birth and death you have endured since the limitless past and to attain without fail unsurpassed enlightenment in this lifetime, you must perceive the sublime reality (妙理) that is originally inherent in all sentient beings. This truth is Myoho-renge-kyo. Chanting Myoho-renge-kyo is to contemplate the inherently infinite existence of the intrinsic sublime reality in the lives of sentient beings.
The Lotus Sutra is the king of sutras, true and correct in both word and principle. Its words are the Real Aspect, and this Real Asect is the Sublime Dharma (妙法). It is called the Sublime Dharma because it reveals the principle of the mutually inclusive relationship of a single moment of Mind and all phenomena. That is why this sutra is the wisdom of all Buddhas.
Mind at each moment encompasses the body and mind and the self and environment of all sentient beings in the Ten Worlds as well as all insentient beings in the three thousand realms, including plants, sky, earth, and even the minutest particles of dust. Mind at each moment permeates the entire realm of phenomena and is revealed in all phenomena. To be awakened to this principle is itself the mutually inclusive relationship of mind at each moment and all phenomena. Nevertheless, even though you chant and believe in Myoho-renge-kyo, if you think the Dharma is outside yourself, you are embracing not the Sublime Dharma but an inferior teaching. “Inferior teaching” means those other than this [Lotus] sutra, which are all expedient and provisional. No expedient or provisional teaching leads directly to enlightenment, and without the direct path to enlightenment you cannot attain Buddhahood, even if you practice lifetime after lifetime for countless kalpas. Attaining Buddhahood in this lifetime is then impossible. Therefore, when you chant myoho and recite renge, you must give rise to a deep mind of faith that Myoho-renge-kyo is your mind itself.
You must never think that any of the eighty thousand sacred teachings of Shakyamuni Buddha’s lifetime or any of the Buddhas and bodhisattvas of the ten directions and three existences are outside yourself. Your practice of the Buddhist teachings will not relieve you of the sufferings of birth and death in the least unless you perceive the True Aspect of your Mind. If you seek enlightenment outside yourself, then your performing even ten thousand practices and ten thousand good deeds will be in vain. It is like the case of a poor man who spends night and day counting his neighbor’s wealth but gains not even half a coin. That is why the T’ien-t’ai school’s commentary states, “Unless one perceives the nature of one’s mind, one cannot eradicate one’s grave offenses.” This passage implies that, unless one perceives the nature of one’s mind, one’s practice will become an endless, painful austerity. Therefore, such students of Buddhism are condemned as non-Buddhist. Great Concentration and Insight states that, although they study Buddhism, their views are no different from those of non-Buddhists.
Whether you chant the Buddha’s name, recite the sutra, or merely offer flowers and incense, all your virtuous acts will implant benefits and roots of goodness in your mind. With this conviction you should strive in faith. The Vimalakirti Sutra states that, when one seeks the Buddhas’ emancipation in the minds of ordinary beings, one finds that ordinary beings are the entities of enlightenment, and that the sufferings of birth and death are nirvana. It also states that, if the minds of living beings are impure, their land is also impure, but if their minds are pure, so is their land. There are not two lands, pure or impure in themselves. The difference lies solely in the good or evil of our minds.
It is the same with a Buddha and an ordinary being. When deluded, one is called an ordinary being, but when enlightened, one is called a Buddha. This is similar to a tarnished mirror that will shine like a jewel when polished. A mind now clouded by the illusions of the fundamental nescience is like a tarnished mirror, but when polished, it is sure to become like a clear mirror, reflecting the essential nature of phenomena and the true aspect of reality. Arouse deep faith, and diligently polish your mirror day and night. How should you polish it? Only by chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.
What then does Myo signify? It is simply the mysterious nature of our mind from moment to moment, which we cannot comprehend or words express. When we look into our own mind at any moment, we perceive neither color nor form to verify that it exists. Yet we still cannot say it does not exist, for many differing thoughts continually occur. The mind cannot be considered either to exist or not to exist. Mind is indeed an elusive reality that transcends both the words and concepts of existence and nonexistence. It is neither existence nor nonexistence, yet exhibits the qualities of both. It is the sublime entity of the Middle Way that is the True Aspect. Myo (sublime) is the name given to the sublime nature of life, and ho (dharma), to its manifestations. Renge, which means lotus flower, is used to symbolize the wonder of this dharma. If we understand that our mind at this moment is myo, then we will also understand that our life at other moments is the Sublime Dharma. This realization is the mystic kyo, or sutra. The Lotus Sutra is the king of sutras, the direct path to enlightenment, for it explains that the True Aspect of our mind, which manifests either good or evil at each moment, is in fact the entity of the Sublime Dharma.
If you chant myoho-renge-kyo with deep faith in this principle, you are certain to attain Buddhahood in this lifetime. That is why the sutra states, “After I have passed into extinction, [one] should accept and uphold this sutra. Such a person assuredly and without doubt will attain the Buddha way.” Never doubt in the slightest.
Maintain your faith and attain Buddhahood in this lifetime. Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.
plwk wrote:Boy..this thread is like trying to compare sushi and sashimi...which is better? Isn't it the case of the consumer's decision?
Son of Buddha wrote:There is no misrepresentation.
The object of devotion for observing the mind)
(note Ven Nichirens words are offensive to many,I qoute them so you can get an idea of what he thought of people who follow Buddhist sutras other than the Lotus sutra)
"All the teachings other than the one chapter and two halves are Hinayana in nature and ERRONEOUS.Not only do they fail to lead to enlightenment,but also they lack the truth.Those who BEIEVE in them are meager in virtue,heavy with defilment,ingnorant,poor,solitary and like birds and beasts"
how many goshos tell Buddhists to abandon all sutras other than the Lotus sutra?
I could probley fill 20 pages just on qoutes from Ven Nichiren telling Buddhists to abandon all other sutras(no sir there is no misrepresentation of his teachings)
Volume five of Mohozhikuan states: “One-Mind (一念) at each moment is endowed with the Ten Worlds. At the same time, each of the Ten Worlds is endowed with all Ten Worlds, so that an entity of life actually possesses one hundred worlds. Each of these worlds in turn possesses thirty realms, which means that in the one hundred worlds there are three thousand realms. The three thousand realms of existence are all possessed by One Mind. If there is no One Mind, that is the end of the matter. But if there is the slightest One-Mind, it contains all the three thousand realms. . . . This is what we mean when we speak of the ‘region of the unfathomable.’ ”
The gradual-gradual [practice] is not [the same as] the perfect-gradual [practice], but through it you can attain the perfect-gradual [results]. The gradual-perfect [practice] is not the same as the perfect-perfect [practice], and through it you cannot attain the perfect-perfect [results]. Why is this so? The Lotus Sðtra says, “What you are practicing is the bodhisattva path,” therefore one can attain the perfect-gradual [results] through the gradual-gradual [practice]. The gradual-perfect [practice], however, is a tentative construction of the results of the three Teachings [of the Tripitaka, Shared, and Distinct], and does not lead further to attainment of the subtle awakening of the Buddha.
It is a misrepresentation because Nichiren does not instruct people to "abandon" all sutras other than the Lotus Sutra. He does say something that many people will take exception to, but he does not say what you say he says. Let's be clear about what he actually says.
I'm not trying to sell anyone on anything. Take it FWIW.
Question: What about the passage in the Lotus Sutra that says, “Do not preach this sutra to persons who are without wisdom”?
Answer: When I speak of understanding capacity, I am referring to preaching by a person of wisdom. Again, one should preach only the Lotus Sutra even to those who slander the Law, so that they may establish a so-called “poison-drum relationship” with it. In this respect, one should proceed as Bodhisattva Never Disparaging did.
However, if one is speaking to persons who one knows have the capacity to become wise, then one should first instruct them in the Hinayana teachings, then instruct them in the provisional Mahayana teachings, and finally instruct them in the true Mahayana. But if speaking to those one knows to be ignorant persons of lesser capacity, then one should first instruct them in the true Mahayana teaching. In that way, whether they choose to believe in the teaching or to slander it, they will still receive the seeds of Buddhahood.
Only after chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo sixty thousand, a hundred thousand, or even ten million times a day, may women who put their faith in the Lotus Sutra, if they still have some time to spare, now and then murmur to themselves the name of Amida or one of the other Buddhas.
Son of Buddha wrote:From Both the realitive and absolute viewpoints,we should abandon all that is bad.To be attached to the perfect teaching is bad,and to be attached to the other three teachings is of course even worse.
The Nirvana Sutra says: “[WorldHonored One, today I have learned the correct view for the first time. World- Honored One, up till today] we all have been people of mistaken views.” Miao-lo explains this by saying, “They themselves referred to the three teachings [they had practiced until that time] as mistaken views.” And Great Concentration and Insight says, “The Nirvana Sutra says, ‘Up till today we all have been people of mistaken views.’ ‘Mistaken’ is bad, is it not?” The Annotations on “Great Concentration and Insight” says: “ ‘Mistaken’ is bad. Therefore, let it be known that only the perfect teaching is good. There are two meanings involved here. First, what accords with the truth is to be accounted good, and what goes against the truth is to be accounted bad. This is the meaning from the relative viewpoint. [Second,] attachment [to this viewpoint] is bad, and transcending it is good. [This is the meaning from the absolute viewpoint.] From both the relative and absolute viewpoints, we should abandon all that is bad. To be attached to the perfect teaching is bad, and to be attached to the other [three] teachings is of course even worse.”
Now its one thing to say that Honens view will lead to hell,its anouther thing entirely to say that the 18th Vow of Amitabha Buddha(Nembutsu) will lead one to hell.if Ven Nichiren has something to say bad about Honens views then state THESE VIEWS(of discarding the Lotus sutra) will lead one to hell,But dont say the Buddhas Vow that those who call his name(Nembutsu) to enter the pureland will lead them to hell.by saying this he is not attacking erroneous views of honen he is attacking the 18th vow.
"The Lotus sutra states "now this 3fold world is all my domain,and the Living beings in it are all my children ,If this scriptural statment is correct,Shakyamuni Buddha is the father and mother,teacher and sovereign to all living beings in japan.
Amida Buddha does not possess these 3 virtues.however,you ignore the Buddha of the 3 Virtues and invoke the name of anouther Buddha(Amida) day and night(he later says this is an unfial deed)
okay first of all the Buddha tells us to praise all the Buddhas in the lotus sutra so their is nothing wrong with invoking the name of Amitabha Buddha,second all the buddhas are the SAME(one Full enlightenement) to say the Buddhas are different is to say they are discriminateing beings just like us with seperate 5 aggreagate selves.
Queequeg wrote:I for the most part don't believe all this stuff about Hell Realms and what not. I say this, however: Anyone who teaches that THIS life is categorically hopeless and that the only hope is in an afterlife should be condemned for teaching destructive ideas.
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