Chan and Pure land

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libraryman
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Re: Chan and Pure land

Post by libraryman »

@Astus, thank you i will look at your links, seems interesting.
@Lindama, Yes i thought to ask to zenforum but Pure Land, in my opinion is not a place to ask about Pure Land but maybe i'm wrong...
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Zhen Li
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Re: Chan and Pure land

Post by Zhen Li »

Son of Buddha wrote:
Zhen li
Because the aspiration for rebirth in the Pure-Land must be sincere. If you are just using the sound or action of repeating nien-fo as an object of dhyana/ch'an, i.e. as a kṛtsna/kasiṇa,
A kasina is a visual object you are mindfull of, chanting is not a kasina.
This is the commentarial interpretation in the Pali traditions, but it depends on how one translates nimitta.
Son of Buddha wrote:You don't have to chant to have aspiration, likewise you can have aspiration and chant and attain Dhyana through chanting.
You can literally have sincere aspiration and never have chanted neinfo a day in your life
Or you could have sincere aspiration and chant neinfo, and accidently slip into Dhyana through the singlemindedness of the chant.
Or you could have sincere aspiration and only chant nainfo as a object to be mindful of in meditation.
All true from the Ch'an perspective. I think you may have lost some of my nuances as regards what I meant as regards a Pure Land practice however. If one is "indeed" practising Pure Land, it's not as simple as being single pointedly aware of the chanting, it involves aspiration and sincerity also. Pure land is not a mechanical practice - these are the sources of downfalls in thinking of Ch'an and Pure Land. One can, and should, practice both, but one should be careful not to mistake one for the other, or to proceed on faulty footing with regards to one or the other.
Son of Buddha
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Re: Chan and Pure land

Post by Son of Buddha »

Zhen Li wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:
Zhen li
Because the aspiration for rebirth in the Pure-Land must be sincere. If you are just using the sound or action of repeating nien-fo as an object of dhyana/ch'an, i.e. as a kṛtsna/kasiṇa,
A kasina is a visual object you are mindfull of, chanting is not a kasina.
This is the commentarial interpretation in the Pali traditions, but it depends on how one translates nimitta.
The Kasina being a visual object you are mindful of does not originate from the commentarial interpretations in the Pali traditions
The Buddha taught it in the pali canon Majjhima Nikaya sutta 77 Mahasakuludayi sutta verse 24 The 10 kasinas

Also a kasina and a Nimitta are not the same thing so it does not depend on how one translates Nimitta.
A kasina is a visual object you are mindful of (the Buddha taught 10 in the palicanon)
A Nimitta is entirely a mental object (typically a bright light) that arises in the mind and you focus upon that.
A Nimitta can arise in ANY type of meditation.
Son of Buddha wrote:You don't have to chant to have aspiration, likewise you can have aspiration and chant and attain Dhyana through chanting.
You can literally have sincere aspiration and never have chanted neinfo a day in your life
Or you could have sincere aspiration and chant neinfo, and accidently slip into Dhyana through the singlemindedness of the chant.
Or you could have sincere aspiration and only chant nainfo as a object to be mindful of in meditation.
All true from the Ch'an perspective. I think you may have lost some of my nuances as regards what I meant as regards a Pure Land practice however. If one is "indeed" practising Pure Land, it's not as simple as being single pointedly aware of the chanting, it involves aspiration and sincerity also. Pure land is not a mechanical practice - these are the sources of downfalls in thinking of Ch'an and Pure Land. One can, and should, practice both, but one should be careful not to mistake one for the other, or to proceed on faulty footing with regards to one or the other.
The PureLand path encompasses Chan also.
In the Infinite Life Sutra the "aspiration" of seeking birth there is accompanied by practice.
As it says we are to practice and not fall behind others in practicing the way.
So I see not deffrentiation between Pure Land and Chan its all just Mahayana to me.
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Zhen Li
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Re: Chan and Pure land

Post by Zhen Li »

Son of Buddha wrote:The PureLand path encompasses Chan also.
In the Infinite Life Sutra the "aspiration" of seeking birth there is accompanied by practice.
As it says we are to practice and not fall behind others in practicing the way.
So I see not deffrentiation between Pure Land and Chan its all just Mahayana to me.
If you are trying to claim that I am arguing against this perspective, I can simply say that I appreciate that not everyone will be able to understand the point I was making.
Son of Buddha wrote:The Kasina being a visual object you are mindful of does not originate from the commentarial interpretations in the Pali traditions
The Buddha taught it in the pali canon Majjhima Nikaya sutta 77 Mahasakuludayi sutta verse 24 The 10 kasinas

Also a kasina and a Nimitta are not the same thing so it does not depend on how one translates Nimitta.
As you will see, I did not argue that kasina and nimitta are the same thing.

Moreover, one will observe that the verbs used in MN77 don't specify visual perception; and include phenomena that are obviously non-visual:
PTS MN.II.14-15 wrote:Puna ca paraṃ udāyi, akkhātā mayā sāvakānaṃ paṭipadā. Yathā paṭipannā me sāvakā dasakasiṇāyatanāni bhāventi. Paṭhavikasiṇameko sañjānāti uddhaṃ adho tiriyaṃ advayaṃ appamāṇaṃ. Āpo kasiṇameko sañjānāti uddhaṃ adho tiriyaṃ advayaṃ appamāṇaṃ. Tejokasiṇameko sañjānāti uddhaṃ adho tiriyaṃ advayaṃ appamāṇaṃ. Vāyokasiṇameko sañjānāti uddhaṃ adho tiriyaṃ advayaṃ appamāṇaṃ. Nīlakasiṇameko sañjānāti uddhaṃ adho tiriyaṃ advayaṃ appamāṇaṃ. Pītakasiṇameko sañjānāti uddhaṃ adho tiriyaṃ advayaṃ appamāṇaṃ. Lohitakasiṇameko sañjānāti uddhaṃ adho tiriyaṃ advayaṃ appamāṇaṃ. Odātakasiṇameko sañjānāti uddhaṃ adho tiriyaṃ advayaṃ appamāṇaṃ. Ākāsakasiṇameko sañjānāti uddhaṃ adho tiriyaṃ advayaṃ appamāṇaṃ. Viññāṇakasiṇameko sañjānāti uddhaṃ adho tiriyaṃ advayaṃ appamāṇaṃ. Tatra ca pana me sāvakā bahū abhiññāvosānapāramippattā viharanti.
One thus must rely upon commentarial sources for interpretation. I am unlikely to compel of you an interest or an open-mindedness in you towards my own meditation practices, so I see little point in elaborating on the useless.
:anjali:
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