"Eternal" Buddha?

[Zhen Li]

Looking over the thread, particularlythis post from Qianxi referring to the appearance of the terms 常住 and 無量, along with the link to Jikai's post, it seems more and more obvious that asking about an "eternal" buddha might be a misdirected question. It seems some subtle Buddhist conventions about the Buddha's inconceivability, specifically his life span, are clumsily translated as "eternal" but really oughtn't, and this may be the source of confusion.

Eternal has been used in western religions to refer both to a quality of the Christian God and his separateness from the temporal limits of creation - clearly a claim that excludes qualities of the Buddha, who also manifests in a limited manner in the world. The question of how this can be so in Christianity when God is also Jesus, is pretty much unanswerable, and hence why the Church denotes the trinity as "mystery."

As regards nitya, it is from ni (back, in) and the suffix -tya (from, of, e.g. tatratya "of that place"), meaning inherent or innate. From the Buddhist perspective, something being innate certainly does imply the lack of limitations attributed to so called "produced dharmas," and may not be free from the fundamental problems of the word "eternal," but it doesn't have the religious problems of that word. We should be able to accept the fact that when manifested in the world, Nirmanakaya doesn't appear to be anything eternal, otherwise we wouldn't be able to see it, in the simplest sense. As regards 常住 and 無量, it doesn't seem problematic to suppose that in some senses, the Buddha has to be limited (though as little as possible), while he also isn't.

[Konch]

The ten unanswered questions, of which these:

The Tathagata (a perfectly enlightened being) exists after death.
The Tathagata does not exist after death.
The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death.
The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.

"The Buddha remained silent when asked these fourteen questions. He described them as a net and refused to be drawn into such a net of theories, speculations, and dogmas." - from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_unanswered_questions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seems a wise course of action for such questions

[hop.pala]

the Tathagata (a perfectly enlightened being) exists after death.
The Tathagata does not exist after death.
The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death.
The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.

Right :
i exist after death.
i does not exist after death.
I both exist and does not exist after death.
I neither exist noes not exist affter death.

The conventional personality die.Buddha die.(therefore not only.)Buddha never go to nirvana ,because die.

[Konch]

the Tathagata (a perfectly enlightened being) exists after death.
The Tathagata does not exist after death.
The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death.
The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.

Right :
i exist after death.
i does not exist after death.
I both exist and does not exist after death.
I neither exist noes not exist affter death.

The conventional personality die.Buddha die.(therefore not only.)Buddha never go to nirvana ,because die.

I think you misundertood my post: Those are some of the Questions that were asked to the Buddha, and the Buddha did not answer them because they would only lead to conceptual proliferation.

[hop.pala]

Aha when you think about,Buddha is conceptual.Only image of good.

[Vajrasvapna]

it is commonly held that the
Buddha of the Lotus Sutra is actually eternal, but I do not find
this clearly stated in the sutra itself. If a Buddha is eternal then it
is difficult to see how anyone else could become a Buddha, short
of combining the teaching of the Saddharmapundarika with that
of the tathagatagarbha (Buddha-nature) and claiming that we are
actually already fully-enlightened Buddhas if we but knew it.
This is exactly what Chih-i himself did. It seems to me however
there is no evidence that the Lotus Sutra itself accepts a teaching
of the tathagatagarbha, and without it a literal acceptance of the
Buddha as eternal would destroy the very possibility of attaining
Buddhahood and with it the Mahayana path

Thoughts?

Buddha nature is eternal in the sense that it is not born, then it will never die.

In the Tathagata-garbha Sutra it is said:
"The Buddha said, 'kulaputras, there is a comparison that can be drawn between the countless flowers conjured up by the Buddha that suddenly withered and the innumerable conjured buddha images with their many adornments, seated in the lotus position within the flowers, who cast forth light so exceedingly rare that there was no one in the assembly who did not show reverence. In a similar fashion, kulaputras, when I regard all beings with my buddha cakshur (eye), I see that hidden within the kleshas (barbs) of raga (greed), lobha (confusion), dvesha (hatred) and moha (obscuration) there is seated augustly and unmovingly the Tathagata jnana , the Tathagata-vision and the Tathagata kaya. kulaputras, all beings, though they find themselves with all sorts of kleshas, have a tathagata-garbha that is eternally unsullied, and that is replete with virtues no different from my own'"

So we all are Buddhas, but because of us negative emotions we can't see us own Buddha nature.

The goal of Buddhism is in fact to transform the physical body into the vajra Body:"The yoga practitioner looks then to his body with a complete different approach than the normal people or medical doctors. He regards it as a cosmic house created by karma and its intelligence, in which the mind is imprisoned. When, by yogic and spiritual practice, the five components that compose the body are transmuted into the state of pure body/mind - like iron transformed into gold by alchemic method - the body becomes indestructible and is then called ‘vajra body‘, and the mind is liberated from the samsaric illusions." http://www.tibetanmedicine-edu.org/inde ... vajra-body . This vajra body is eternal and will endless manifest to help people archive liberation.

In this way the Lotus Sutra was a Mahayana sutra with clear Tathagata-garbha and Vajrayana embryonic teachings.

[DGA]

it is commonly held that the
Buddha of the Lotus Sutra is actually eternal, but I do not find
this clearly stated in the sutra itself. If a Buddha is eternal then it
is difficult to see how anyone else could become a Buddha, short
of combining the teaching of the Saddharmapundarika with that
of the tathagatagarbha (Buddha-nature) and claiming that we are
actually already fully-enlightened Buddhas if we but knew it.
This is exactly what Chih-i himself did. It seems to me however
there is no evidence that the Lotus Sutra itself accepts a teaching
of the tathagatagarbha, and without it a literal acceptance of the
Buddha as eternal would destroy the very possibility of attaining
Buddhahood and with it the Mahayana path

Thoughts?

Buddha nature is eternal in the sense that it is not born, then it will never die.

In the Tathagata-garbha Sutra it is said:
"The Buddha said, 'kulaputras, there is a comparison that can be drawn between the countless flowers conjured up by the Buddha that suddenly withered and the innumerable conjured buddha images with their many adornments, seated in the lotus position within the flowers, who cast forth light so exceedingly rare that there was no one in the assembly who did not show reverence. In a similar fashion, kulaputras, when I regard all beings with my buddha cakshur (eye), I see that hidden within the kleshas (barbs) of raga (greed), lobha (confusion), dvesha (hatred) and moha (obscuration) there is seated augustly and unmovingly the Tathagata jnana , the Tathagata-vision and the Tathagata kaya. kulaputras, all beings, though they find themselves with all sorts of kleshas, have a tathagata-garbha that is eternally unsullied, and that is replete with virtues no different from my own'"

So we all are Buddhas, but because of us negative emotions we can't see us own Buddha nature.

The goal of Buddhism is in fact to transform the physical body into the vajra Body:"The yoga practitioner looks then to his body with a complete different approach than the normal people or medical doctors. He regards it as a cosmic house created by karma and its intelligence, in which the mind is imprisoned. When, by yogic and spiritual practice, the five components that compose the body are transmuted into the state of pure body/mind - like iron transformed into gold by alchemic method - the body becomes indestructible and is then called ‘vajra body‘, and the mind is liberated from the samsaric illusions." http://www.tibetanmedicine-edu.org/inde ... vajra-body . This vajra body is eternal and will endless manifest to help people archive liberation.

In this way the Lotus Sutra was a Mahayana sutra with clear Tathagata-garbha and Vajrayana embryonic teachings.

That's my understanding too.


Back to Yuren's point:

The Lotus Sutra is sometimes criticized for being short on explicit doctrine, and long on narrative and description (I can give you references for that if you need 'em). This may explain the problem you observe: nowhere in the Lotus Sutra does Buddha Shakyamuni come on out and say GENTLEMEN, BEHOLD! THIS IS... TATHAGATAGARBHA! Instead, this teaching is presented sequentially in a series of parables.

Chih-i then squares the circle with a very specific presentation of Madhyamika (the four teachings, the threefold truth) in which the potential for Buddhahood for all beings is paramount. Swanson's book T'ienTai Philosophy has yet to be superseded on this point. Check it out if you're interested.

[Vajrasvapna]

[The Lotus Sutra is sometimes criticized for being short on explicit doctrine, and long on narrative and description (I can give you references for that if you need 'em). This may explain the problem you observe: nowhere in the Lotus Sutra does Buddha Shakyamuni come on out and say GENTLEMEN, BEHOLD! THIS IS... TATHAGATAGARBHA! Instead, this teaching is presented sequentially in a series of parables.

Chih-i then squares the circle with a very specific presentation of Madhyamika (the four teachings, the threefold truth) in which the potential for Buddhahood for all beings is paramount. Swanson's book T'ienTai Philosophy has yet to be superseded on this point. Check it out if you're interested.

In the teachings of the second and third turning, the Buddha explained about the non-existence of a conditioned self, because this was the wrong view of some Indian spiritual schools. However some non-Buddhist teachers actually see atman similarly to the Buddha nature, then the difference between Buddhism and Hinduism is not really so great.

In the teachings of the third turning, he taught about Tathagatagarbha and in the tantras and Upadeshas about the energy level and how to achieve the vajra body.

Since I had no knowledge about T'ienTai , maybe I will read the book you recommended. Thank you.

[hop.pala]

the body becomes indestructible and is then called ‘vajra body‘, and the mind is liberated from the samsaric illusions." http://www.tibetanmedicine-edu.org/inde ... vajra-body" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . This vajra body is eternal and will endless manifest to help people archive liberation.

Aha understand.I have an problem.becomes=will be
Can not be eternal,or incosistency.

[hop.pala]

Somebody explain the Trikaya to him.

I know the story of trikaya,nowhere nirvana,everywhere Buddha.

[Grigoris]

Somebody explain the Trikaya to him.

I know the story of trikaya,nowhere nirvana,everywhere Buddha.

If you know the Trikaya then you know that the Dharmakaya is the eternal Buddha. It is that simple.

[hop.pala]

I dont think so because let the trikaya story the nirvana.I think they try to put Buddha in nirvana.

[Queequeg]

We should be able to accept the fact that when manifested in the world, Nirmanakaya doesn't appear to be anything eternal, otherwise we wouldn't be able to see it, in the simplest sense. As regards 常住 and 無量, it doesn't seem problematic to suppose that in some senses, the Buddha has to be limited (though as little as possible), while he also isn't.

The Lotus Sutra seems to suggest that the Nirmanakaya is "eternal" - The Buddha says that his appearance of being born, awakening, teaching, and eventually dying, are no more than upaya, and that in truth, he is always in the world leading beings to enlightenment, sometimes in the appearance of a buddha with 32 marks, sometimes as something else. Our perception that the Nirmanakaya is finite is our misperception - not the reality of the Buddha, including Nirmanakaya... I think the Tientai tradition goes on to unpack the implications of this assertion in some very interesting ways...

[Zhen Li]

Yes, it is just the appearance that is finite.

[Vajrasvapna]

the body becomes indestructible and is then called ‘vajra body‘, and the mind is liberated from the samsaric illusions." http://www.tibetanmedicine-edu.org/inde ... vajra-body" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . This vajra body is eternal and will endless manifest to help people archive liberation.

Aha understand.I have an problem.becomes=will be
Can not be eternal,or incosistency.

Eternal in the sense that it will manifest infinitely to help beings, not in the sense of an unchanging entity.

[Vajrasvapna]

We should be able to accept the fact that when manifested in the world, Nirmanakaya doesn't appear to be anything eternal, otherwise we wouldn't be able to see it, in the simplest sense. As regards 常住 and 無量, it doesn't seem problematic to suppose that in some senses, the Buddha has to be limited (though as little as possible), while he also isn't.

The Lotus Sutra seems to suggest that the Nirmanakaya is "eternal" - The Buddha says that his appearance of being born, awakening, teaching, and eventually dying, are no more than upaya, and that in truth, he is always in the world leading beings to enlightenment, sometimes in the appearance of a buddha with 32 marks, sometimes as something else. Our perception that the Nirmanakaya is finite is our misperception - not the reality of the Buddha, including Nirmanakaya... I think the Tientai tradition goes on to unpack the implications of this assertion in some very interesting ways...

I believe that the Buddha mind works in a intuitive way, not rational . The Buddha emanates as light reflection in the mirror and is always manifest in all realms. I think i need to learn more about the Tientai.

[DGA]

The Lotus Sutra seems to suggest that the Nirmanakaya is "eternal" - The Buddha says that his appearance of being born, awakening, teaching, and eventually dying, are no more than upaya, and that in truth, he is always in the world leading beings to enlightenment, sometimes in the appearance of a buddha with 32 marks, sometimes as something else. Our perception that the Nirmanakaya is finite is our misperception - not the reality of the Buddha, including Nirmanakaya... I think the Tientai tradition goes on to unpack the implications of this assertion in some very interesting ways...

I'd put it differently. It seems to me that the Lotus Sutra says that Dharmakaya is eternal, and that each of the Buddha's appearances of being born, awakening, teaching &c are nirmanakaya--sometimes in this way, sometimes in that way. In that way, all beings are led to Buddhahood by Buddhahood.

You're absolutely right about Tientai on this point: Buddhahood, Buddha-ness, is immanent always in all things per the Threefold Truth.

[hop.pala]

Eternal in the sense that it will manifest infinitely to help beings, not in the sense of an unchanging entity.

Aha and the buddhadhatu is unchanged.

[Queequeg]

It seems to me that the Lotus Sutra says that Dharmakaya is eternal, and that each of the Buddha's appearances of being born, awakening, teaching &c are nirmanakaya--sometimes in this way, sometimes in that way.

I think you might be reading a distinction that postdates the composition of the sutra. I am, too, to the extent that I'm employing the concept of Trikaya to talk about the Lotus Sutra. Its one thing to employ Trikaya to explain the Lotus Sutra; its another to interpret the Lotus Sutra through Trikaya. I'm not sure the Buddha in the 16th Chapter is a disembodied Dharmakaya. The idea that the Buddha actually enters parinirvana (dies) is the very idea that is addressed in the 16th Chapter, and it seems a stretch to interpret the chapter as conforming to the distinctions supposed by the Trikaya. I think its more accurate to understand the Buddha of the 16th chapter through upaya:

“Listen carefully to the Tathāgata’s secret and transcendent powers. The devas, humans, and asuras in all the worlds all think that the present Buddha, Śākyamuni, left the palace of the Śākyas, sat on the terrace of enlightenment not far from the city of Gayā, and attained highest, complete enlightenment. However, O sons of a virtuous family, immeasurable, limitless, hundreds of thousands of myriads of koṭis of nayutas of kalpas have passed since I actually attained buddhahood...

[Description of the Buddha's life span using the analogy of world system of dust motes of world system dust motes]

“O sons of a virtuous family! During this interim I explained about the Buddha Dīpaṃkara and others. Furthermore, I also said that they had entered parinirvāṇa. I have explained such things through skillful means.

“O sons of a virtuous family! If any sentient being comes to me, I perceive the dullness or sharpness of his faith and other faculties with my buddhaeye. According to the way I should bring them to the path, I, myself, proclaim different names and lifespans in various places. In each case I have also clearly stated that I would enter parinirvāṇa. Through various skillful means I have explained subtle teachings and have made the sentient beings rejoice.

“O sons of a virtuous family! To those beings whom the Tathāgata perceives as taking pleasure in the inferior teachings, who have few qualities and grave defilements, he teaches that the Buddha attained highest, complete enlightenment after he re nounced household life in his young age. However, it has been a very long time indeed since I attained buddhahood. I give such an explanation only to lead and inspire the sentient beings to enter the buddha path through skillful means.

“O sons of a virtuous family! The sutras that the Tathāgata has expounded are all to save the sentient beings. Whether the Tathāgata teaches about himself or others, whether he reveals his form or that of others, whether he shows his acts or those of others, everything he says is true, never false.

“Why is this? Because the Tathāgata perceives all the marks of the triple world as they really are: that there is no birth and death, coming or going; that there is also no existence or extinction in the world, truth or falsehood, sameness or difference. The Tathāgata does not view the triple world as sentient beings in the triple world see it. The Tathāgata perceives such things clearly and without mistakes.

“Since sentient beings have various natures, desires, behaviors, thoughts, and distinctions, the Tathāgata, wanting to cause them to plant roots of good merit, has explained various teachings through a variety of examples, explanations,
and illustrations. He has not desisted from doing buddha acts even for a single moment and in this way it has been an extremely long time since I attained buddhahood. My lifespan is immeasurable and incalculable. I abide forever without entering parinirvāṇa.

“O sons of a virtuous family! The lifespan that I first attained through practicing the bodhisattva path has not yet expired. It is twice as great as the number previously mentioned. Although I do not actually enter parinirvāṇa I proclaim that I do. It is through this skillful means that the Tathāgata leads and inspires sentient beings...

"For this reason, although the Tathāgata does not really pass into extinction, he nevertheless says he does...

Buddha goes on to relate the parable of the skilled doctor who tell his children he is dead to shock them into taking the medicine he left.

The verse section doesn't mince words:

Since I attained buddhahood,
Immeasurable hundreds of thousands of myriads
Of koṭis of incalculable kalpas have passed.
I have been constantly teaching the Dharma,
Through these immeasurable kalpas,
Leading and inspiring
Innumerable koṭis of sentient beings
And enabling them to enter the buddha path.
Using skillful means
I have manifested the state of nirvana
To bring sentient beings to this path;
Yet I have not actually entered nirvana,
But continually abide here expounding the Dharma.
Although I am always among these erring beings,
With my transcendent powers,
I prevent them from seeing me...

I will declare this to sentient beings:
Although I am always here without extinction,
Through the power of skillful means
I manifest extinction and nonextinction.
If there are any sentient beings in other worlds
Who respect and believe in me,
I will also teach them the highest Dharma.
Not knowing this, you only think
That I have entered parinirvāṇa...

It is like the physician
Who proclaimed his own death,
Although it was untrue.

I don't see this distinction between Dharmakaya and Nirmanakaya that you suggest. The Buddha seems to be explaining himself in a much more straightforward manner than that.

The Lotus Sutra is self conciously "difficult to believe, difficult to understand" - precisely because of this 16th Chapter which basically says something contradictory to almost all other Buddhist teachings.

Otherwise, I think we're on the same page.

[LastLegend]

Dharmakaya is the empty phenomona of all things, and all things manifest through change. Then it is not just a concept. That's what we are, everything is. As for eternal, I heard that energy cannot be created or destroyed. It can be recycled. Matter is energy if I am not mistaken.