Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Forum for discussion of East Asian Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
dsaly1969
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:19 pm

Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by dsaly1969 »

I came to my current Buddhist practice from very naturalistic interpretations of Japanese Mahayana Buddhism which is highly "religious" (aka liturgical) in format. So while I have moved away from the Lotus Sutra and Pure Land Sutras recitation (I was into Rissho Kosei-kai and Shin Buddhism), my practice still looks somewhat formal and I guess "religious" in some ways (but certainly not supernaturalist).

Coming from years of being immersed in Japanese Buddhist traditions which tend to be VERY "religious" and liturgical in practice, although curiously open to naturalistic interpretations in outlook, I found that Secular Buddhism did not involve a change of outlook (as supernaturalist interpretations of Buddha Dharma were not emphasized and sometimes even discouraged). In fact, much of Japanese Buddhism, at least in Rissho Kosei-kai and Shin Buddhism, was much more about orthopraxy (right practice) and very little about orthodoxy (right doctrine). This clearly caused a difference in interests between “convert” Westerners who want to discuss Buddhist teachings and doctrine versus many of the ones who were “born into the faith” so to speak where the Temple served more of a cultural function.

I had more dissonance with the change in practice where my prior traditions relied more on sutra recitation and chanting. For the Japanese this was more of a ritualized way of doing ancestral veneration which was a very Japanese way of recognizing interdependence and dependent origination. Traditionally these daily recitations at the home butsudan were done for the "benefit" of ancestral kami or "spirits" and later seen as at least an expression of gratitude towards the ancestors in a naturalistic sense. Rissho Kosei-kai altars even had family-specific ancestral tablets (and usually pictures of their ancestors and “beloved dead”) next to the butsudan.

I found an article which speaks to some of this in Japanese Buddhism (and why also we are starting to see a decline in membership in the Japanese Buddhist institutions both here in America, especially with Westerners, as well as Japan - although SGI/Soka Gakkai is declining at a slower pace).

http://www.rk-world.org/dharmaworld/dw_ ... ciety.aspx

My current practice is very stripped down from what I used to do and includes Taking Refuge in the Three Jewels, Taking the Five Precepts, and a short meditation practice such as Ānāpānasati (mindfulness of breath) or shikantaza as I went for that Theravada (modern Vipassana Movement)/modern Zen blend so popular with us naturalistic secular Westerners.
Admin_PC
Former staff member
Posts: 4860
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:17 pm

Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by Admin_PC »

dsaly1969 wrote:For the Japanese this was more of a ritualized way of doing ancestral veneration which was a very Japanese way of recognizing interdependence and dependent origination. Traditionally these daily recitations at the home butsudan were done for the "benefit" of ancestral kami or "spirits" and later seen as at least an expression of gratitude towards the ancestors in a naturalistic sense. Rissho Kosei-kai altars even had family-specific ancestral tablets (and usually pictures of their ancestors and “beloved dead”) next to the butsudan.
How is any of this consistent with Shin?
The daily chant in Shin is the ShoShinGe, which is a summary of the doctrine of the school - so much for your unfounded statement about "right doctrine". Shinran explicitly rejected kami veneration. In Shin it's a big no-no to have ancestral pictures or tablets on the Butsudan. Seriously man, are you just making this stuff up as you go?
dsaly1969 wrote:I went for that Theravada (modern Vipassana Movement)/modern Zen blend so popular with us naturalistic secular Westerners.
Congratulations, you went Secular Buddhism. I'm sorry you never understood what you were doing in regards to Shin Buddhism. I hope you have much success with your new practice.
Yuren
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:39 am

Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by Yuren »

PorkChop wrote:
dsaly1969 wrote:For the Japanese this was more of a ritualized way of doing ancestral veneration which was a very Japanese way of recognizing interdependence and dependent origination. Traditionally these daily recitations at the home butsudan were done for the "benefit" of ancestral kami or "spirits" and later seen as at least an expression of gratitude towards the ancestors in a naturalistic sense. Rissho Kosei-kai altars even had family-specific ancestral tablets (and usually pictures of their ancestors and “beloved dead”) next to the butsudan.
How is any of this consistent with Shin?
The daily chant in Shin is the ShoShinGe, which is a summary of the doctrine of the school - so much for your unfounded statement about "right doctrine". Shinran explicitly rejected kami veneration. In Shin it's a big no-no to have ancestral pictures or tablets on the Butsudan. Seriously man, are you just making this stuff up as you go?
dsaly1969 wrote:I went for that Theravada (modern Vipassana Movement)/modern Zen blend so popular with us naturalistic secular Westerners.
Congratulations, you went Secular Buddhism. I'm sorry you never understood what you were doing in regards to Shin Buddhism. I hope you have much success with your new practice.
Hey iPorkChop I think your reply is needlessly antagonistic in this case. I totally understand the OP's disappointment and it's not all his fault. The state of Shin Buddhism here in Japan is far from Rennyo's standards. As it often happens to be the case with Buddhism and religion in general, the ideal and the actual differ widely, especially in Japanese Buddhism aka Funeral Corp. I was at a Shin temple a few weeks ago and I can tell you the picture of the deceased is placed on the altar, and the Nembutsu is recited for the deceased person. Shinran explicitly opposed this idea of saying Nembutsu for a specific deceased person ("I never said NEmbutsu for my parents") but the modern temples seem to ignore that. They need to conduct the funeral business after all. The OP seems to be disillusioned with liturgical Buddhism, and I absolutely agree with him. I personally told the Jodo Shinshu priest that I read the Shoshinge in English, daily, and he seemed to disapprove, not only that, he even seemed to make fun of me a little, as if I am doing something absurd! He then stressed how "shinjin cannot be translated". Imagine going to a church in 2015 and you inquire about faith and you say that you read the Bible in English, and the priest is skeptical about anything but Greek in Latin, because Latin is special? Indeed, let's not fool ourselves, Japanese Buddhism is often stuck where Christianity was in the Middle Ages. Shin Buddhism - like other sects - are desperately calling for another "protestant revolution". We often forget how revolutionary Shinran really was (he got married! he said no practice except Other Power faith is required! he said he never said Nembutsu for his deceased parents! he said even good people will go to the Pure Land, so let alone the evil people!)... indeed if Shin is to survive, it will need to undergo a lot of reform. And I don't mean it must become more secular, far from it. But what has liturgical stale forms, ritualism and old Japanese letters have to do with Other Power faith? Similar to what Bonhoffer the Protestant Christian said about Christianity, "if Christianity is to live, religion has to die" - what he meant wasn't some atheist Christian morality... he just meant that the liturgical ritualism is actually preventing genuine Christianity from emerging. Similarly, the stale liturgic ritualism of Japanese Buddhism can allow things to become automatic and so it prevents genuine discussion of faith. - The liturgy, the chanting, the old Japanese... the priest is turned away from the people and recites in a language that is not intelligible to modern Japanese people. At the end of the ritual, I heard someone sitting behind me whisper: "What is the Sutra we were listening to? Was it the Heart Sutra?"
Yuren
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:39 am

Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by Yuren »

and why also we are starting to see a decline in membership in the Japanese Buddhist institutions both here in America
That doesn't surprise me. Without reform, Japanese Buddhism will not only decline, but completely die out. My suggestion: considering your disappointment with this form of liturgical religion, why not try a more direct approach? Does the Lotus Sutra say you need to join a specific Buddhist sect? Doesn't it say that one can receive "transmission" directly from the text of that Sutra? That the text itself contains not a part of Buddha's body (a relic), but the whole of Buddha's body? Does Shinran say which sect you have to join? Or does he say instead: "I do not have even a single disciple "? He explicitly claims he is not a founder of a new sect, and signs letters with "Shinran, disciple of Shakyamuni". - What I can recommend is that you perhaps read the texts that attracted you in the past, for Pure Land I recommend Essentials of Faith Alone by Seikaku (a Google Search will lead you to a free online version of that text). When the karma is ripe a true teacher appears in your life, but if there is no true teacher in your life, why not see the texts as your true teachers? Shakyamuni's admonition was: rely on the Dharma, not on people. In one of the earliest suttas he said: if you do not find spiritual friends, wander alone. Before his death, the last words he uttered were: be an island to yourself, be a refuge to yourself. When it comes to spiritual matters, how can you ever trust an institution completely? That's impossible.They can only offer a little support, that's all. I hope you find the Way.
Admin_PC
Former staff member
Posts: 4860
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:17 pm

Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by Admin_PC »

Yuren wrote:Hey iPorkChop I think your reply is needlessly antagonistic in this case.
What'd he expect? He comes on the East Asian Buddhism forum, denounces 2 forms of Japanese Buddhism with info that's wildly inaccurate (for one school at least) from how it exists both in doctrine & as it's practiced (here in the west for sure), then makes a triumphalist claim about turning to Secular Buddhism that more suits his western mindset... How was that anything other than antagonistic from the get go? Did he want a reward? A round of applause for telling the East Asian forum how bad Japanese Buddhism is?

I'm sorry that I come off antagonistic when I post replies to threads like this. If people are careful with their words, or at least make an effort, then I'll make an effort to be as helpful as possible. When people jump on line and start going off as if they had something to prove, dismissing other practices & practitioners, then I tend to remove some of my own filters. If people post with a particularly abrasive style, then they shouldn't expect anything but an abrasive response. This is especially true for this thread considering *where* he made this post and who his intended audience was. If he'd posted the same thing in a Secular Buddhism forum, I wouldn't even bother to reply.
Yuren wrote:I totally understand the OP's disappointment and it's not all his fault. The state of Shin Buddhism here in Japan is far from Rennyo's standards. As it often happens to be the case with Buddhism and religion in general, the ideal and the actual differ widely, especially in Japanese Buddhism aka Funeral Corp. I was at a Shin temple a few weeks ago and I can tell you the picture of the deceased is placed on the altar, and the Nembutsu is recited for the deceased person. Shinran explicitly opposed this idea of saying Nembutsu for a specific deceased person ("I never said NEmbutsu for my parents") but the modern temples seem to ignore that.
Maybe that's where Shin in the US and Shin in some places in Japan are different? I listen to a number of podcasts from the weekly Dharma talks given by a number of Shin temples associated with the BCA here and none of that stuff would fly. It's constantly stressed during monthly memorial services that services are for those who are still alive. Constant mention is made about keeping the Butsudan free from such ancestor veneration. The thing is, the OP admits to being Western minded and his statements are in no way indicative of how Shin is practiced in the west. I've even seen youtube videos of Dharma lectures & etiquette lessons (even regarding the Butsudan) from temples in Japan saying many of the same things that I mentioned in Japanese. So I wonder if it's just a situation where some individual temples have slipped off track?
Yuren wrote:The OP seems to be disillusioned with liturgical Buddhism, and I absolutely agree with him.
Why is "liturgical" Buddhism reserved for Japanese Mahayana though? There are daily liturgies in all traditional forms of Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana - all recommended to be chanted in languages other than English.

I should point out regarding ritual in a foreign language - Joseph Campbell makes the exact opposite observation. He said that the rituals of Catholicism lost power when they converted from church latin to the vernacular (English, Spanish, etc). He argues that a ritual can have more power on the mind when it's only vaguely (not intimately) understood what's being chanted, because it disengages the calculating mind. I thought this always sounded a bit like the Shin Shu struggle to drop the "hakarai".

I think this mentality works when the languages are related. English & latin are close enough that you can often tell the context of what's being said in the foreign language even if you aren't fluent with what's being said. This is even easier if it's Spanish & latin. When the languages are not related, such as English & kanbun (I won't even call it Japanese), it can be a really uphill battle. Since Chinese/kanbun is no longer part of the standard Japanese education, then I could even see a case made for leaving it there as well.
Yuren wrote:I personally told the Jodo Shinshu priest that I read the Shoshinge in English, daily, and he seemed to disapprove, not only that, he even seemed to make fun of me a little, as if I am doing something absurd! He then stressed how "shinjin cannot be translated".
Not only is this inconsistent with the Buddha's own words about translating the sutras into the common languages, it sure doesn't seem consistent with the actions of either of the Honganjis (east or west) - which have both made available copious materials in English. In BCA, for example, they created a version of the ShoShinGe in vernacular Japanese for the Japanese services, and it was the members who requested the traditional kanbun version. Alfred Bloom & others (like the Orange County Buddhist Church official Shin Buddhist Service Book distributed by the BCA) have posted English versions that are not only studied for content, but also have a lyrical metre designed for chanting. Jodo Shin Shu has a long history in the US of gathas in English (unfortunately, not all of them very good). Yes, Tokudo ordination in Jodo Shin Shu requires one to be able to chant a single gatha in kanbun from memory, but the option is always there to chant Ekoku - which is very short. Personally, I got authorization from one of my instructors to chant the Amida Kyo in English as my daily recitation. This is guidance from an official Jodo Shin Shu minister, representing Nishi Honganji abroad, as part of a Nishi Honganji sponsored correspondence course - ie for me, it holds a little more weight than an off the cuff comment from a local minister at a local temple who's not necessarily trained to teach non-Japanese.
Yuren wrote:Imagine going to a church in 2015 and you inquire about faith and you say that you read the Bible in English, and the priest is skeptical about anything but Greek in Latin, because Latin is special? Indeed, let's not fool ourselves, Japanese Buddhism is often stuck where Christianity was in the Middle Ages.
I guess I'm not sure why this has to be a "Japanese Buddhism" thing. It sure sounds like some silliness on the part of a single monk (or group of monks). I mean when they consistently go against the doctrines of the school, how is it that the school takes the blame? People doing their own thing can happen in any form of Buddhism. The argument over what language to chant in happens in other forms of Buddhism as well, even ones that appear to be growing - just look at debates regarding sutra recitation in Pali/Tibetan/Chinese/etc.
Yuren wrote:Shin Buddhism - like other sects - are desperately calling for another "protestant revolution". We often forget how revolutionary Shinran really was (he got married! he said no practice except Other Power faith is required! he said he never said Nembutsu for his deceased parents! he said even good people will go to the Pure Land, so let alone the evil people!)... indeed if Shin is to survive, it will need to undergo a lot of reform. And I don't mean it must become more secular, far from it.
Again, maybe the west is leading the charge on this? On the other hand, there sure does seem to be a lot of support from the official head temples back in Japan. Unfortunately, in some cases, they can risk going too far towards the secular side of things.

Like I said, I do completely agree with chanting in one's own vernacular - or at least something one can understand. I guess I can agree that it can be a weakness of Japanese Buddhism in general. In other words, many schools of Japanese Buddhism never bothered to break free of kanbun, which very few people are/were able to understand, and present their teachings in a vernacular that can be well understood. Shinran and Honen were pretty revolutionary in regards to this. Honen's Ichimai Kishomon was in common Japanese, as well as his poems - both of which are recited in Jodo Shu Temples. Shinran's WaSan (和讃) were songs praising the teachings in Japanese that common folks could understand, set to popular tunes of the day.
Yuren wrote:But what has liturgical stale forms, ritualism and old Japanese letters have to do with Other Power faith?
I'm a little worried about throwing the baby out with the bathwater in regards to liturgy. I find liturgies & aspiration prayers can be more powerful at gearing one's motivation in the right direction & can have an amazing affect on one's mind - much more so in my experience than sitting quietly on a cushion. The reason I support chanting in one's own vernacular is so that one has an idea of what's being said. Trying to get a non-native Japanese speaker to only recite in kanbun is a bit ridiculous, I agree. But that doesn't mean that reciting a daily liturgy is useless, or somehow makes a school of Buddhism superstitious. A fun experiment would be setting English translations of Shinran's WaSan to the tune of popular songs these days and seeing how people take to it. On the off chance, have you listened to Tariki Echo? or Rev Nana Yanase?
Yuren wrote:Similarly, the stale liturgic ritualism of Japanese Buddhism can allow things to become automatic and so it prevents genuine discussion of faith. - The liturgy, the chanting, the old Japanese... the priest is turned away from the people and recites in a language that is not intelligible to modern Japanese people. At the end of the ritual, I heard someone sitting behind me whisper: "What is the Sutra we were listening to? Was it the Heart Sutra?"
Again, I'd love to see an update of the ritual so it becomes meaningful, not just tossing it out. I saw a similar experience like you're describing in the comments section for a youtube video of a Jodo Shu service. The Jodo Shu Otsutome book that I have does actually have what's being chanted translated into vernacular Japanese however, listing them side-by-side. Jodo Shu's specific chanting style is actually designed to evoke meaningful emotion from the reciter; I have a Jodo Shu instructional dvd of Jodo Shu minister Rev Arimoto saying this explicitly. In fact, the reason I don't do their Otsutome is because I can't chant like that (my Japanese is a little different coming from Okinawa). It's hard for me to make the kind of sounds that their style of chanting requires, but for them it's meant to be heartfelt. It's kind of sad if nobody is really evoking that emotion anymore & just mimicking a chanting form. You would hope having the vernacular on the side as a translation would help, but since not, it might be a sign that they need to switch things up.

PS - thanks for turning this discussion from a gripefest towards a positive direction. :)
User avatar
Seishin
Former staff member
Posts: 1915
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:53 am
Contact:

Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by Seishin »

dsaly1969 wrote: My current practice is very stripped down from what I used to do and includes Taking Refuge in the Three Jewels, Taking the Five Precepts, and a short meditation practice such as Ānāpānasati (mindfulness of breath) or shikantaza as I went for that Theravada (modern Vipassana Movement)/modern Zen blend so popular with us naturalistic secular Westerners.
This is very similar to Tendai practice. If you are interested in Japanese Buddhism still, you may like to take a look.
Admin_PC
Former staff member
Posts: 4860
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:17 pm

Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by Admin_PC »

Seishin wrote:This is very similar to Tendai practice. If you are interested in Japanese Buddhism still, you may like to take a look.
I really wish you guys had more representation/temples outside of Japan. :twothumbsup:
User avatar
Seishin
Former staff member
Posts: 1915
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:53 am
Contact:

Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by Seishin »

So do I :tongue:
dsaly1969
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:19 pm

Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by dsaly1969 »

PorkChop, I never "denounced" Shin or Rissho Kosei-kai. You read your own issues into my statements and then responded like an ass. Delete my account.
Admin_PC
Former staff member
Posts: 4860
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:17 pm

Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by Admin_PC »

dsaly1969 wrote:PorkChop, I never "denounced" Shin or Rissho Kosei-kai. You read your own issues into my statements and then responded like an ass. Delete my account.
These aren't my issues, you made a number of very clear assertions in your initial post that cannot be backed up by either doctrine or practice as it exists in the west, especially for one of the schools you called out (Shin). You were called on it. Rather than discussing it and trying to back up your bold assertions; let alone trying to answer my questions, you call me an "ass" and want to take your ball & go home. Go have fun on another forum where you can make up as much stuff as you want and nobody will challenge you on it.

Relevant portions of the Terms of Service for this board...
No Proselytizing [this includes talking about how great, naturalistic, rational, & non-supernatural Secular Buddhism is]
No Ad Hominem/Personal Attacks [includes calling someone an "ass"]
No Inappropriate Language [includes the term "ass"]

Do not be disruptive. Dharma Wheel is an environment for the discussion of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. All are welcome but are required to abide by the Terms of Service (ToS). The staff team reserve the right to edit/remove inappropriate content, and to remove or transfer any posts or threads that are not relevant to the sub-forum in which they are posted. Any subject matter that may be off-topic or is intended only to cause disruption or harm to others may be removed without notice.

People are free to question the teachings and traditional interpretations in Open Dharma subforum. Questions about a practice, a teaching or belief are appropriate in the specific subforum where the practice belongs, but criticisms belong in Open Dharma only and should be done sensitively, where possible with reference to the appropriate teachings. For example, do not challenge the core Dharma concepts and principles of Pure Land Buddhism in the Pure Land subforum and the same goes with the other specific traditions as well.

Accounts are not deleted upon request though they can be deactivated. The posts associated with a deactivated account are not deleted as this would mess up the continuity of threads.

This is not a "comparative religion site", it is a site to learn and discuss the Buddha's teachings without animosity. In support of this:

~ Badmouthing of other spiritual paths is not allowed.
~ Proselyting/evangelizing other paths which includes for example arguing some other path is superior to the Buddhist path is not allowed.

Dharma Wheel administrators and moderators are first and foremost members of Dharma Wheel and as such are entitled to express their views and opinions in threads the same as all registered users. Staff expressing their personal views and opinions in threads should not be mistaken for acts of administration/moderation. The staff will make it clear when they are performing an act of administration/moderation. Please read the Terms of Service-Reporting Procedures to see how to proceed if you disagree with or wish to complain about an act of administration/moderation.
User avatar
Redfaery
Posts: 569
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:14 pm
Location: Smalltown USA

Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by Redfaery »

dsaly1969 wrote:My current practice is very stripped down from what I used to do and includes Taking Refuge in the Three Jewels, Taking the Five Precepts, and a short meditation practice such as Ānāpānasati (mindfulness of breath) or shikantaza as I went for that Theravada (modern Vipassana Movement)/modern Zen blend so popular with us naturalistic secular Westerners.
I assume you've deactivated your account, so you probably won't see this, but I feel it needs to be said.

I'm a Westerner, but I'm neither naturalistic nor secular. East Asian Buddhism has enormous appeal to me as it is precisely because it is not the secularized Zen/Theravada blend that just so happens to be about all one can find in most places in the US. The Lotus Sutra speaks truths that resonate with me on a deep level, but I have yet to see an English translation carried in ANY major bookstore. The closest Tendai center is, I believe, in Maryland. I'm several states away. Tendai, Pure Land, and Chan bring me spiritual comfort, and give me the strength to share that comfort with others. When I read the sutras, I feel joy - I am moved to compassion, even for those who have hurt me. Yet the Theravada/Zen blend of secular Buddhism seems so often aimed at just deprogramming oneself of self-doubt and negativity and no more - not going the next step and helping others on their own paths. I am selfish enough without a pseudo-spiritual justification propping it up. That is why I need non-secular Buddhism!
NAMO SARASWATI DEVI
Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever. - GANDHI
I am a delicate feminine flower!!!!
Yuren
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:39 am

Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by Yuren »

iPorkChop even if he misunderstands Shin I wonder: is brutally stating that as fact the best approach? You can't expect everyone to spend many hours a day studying the Collected Works of Shinran. The problem is, if we demand great knowledge from everyone, the Pure Land Path will become a luxury for middle class intellectuals. How is that consistent with Honen's saying that it is the path for illiterate farmers? So being factually right is not the issue. Y

He deleted his account now. Does that mean I'm right and you're wrong? No! Neither me nor you can see the causal chain of events, maybe it is for the better, and he will - after a period of spiritual crisis - reemerge much stronger. So I don't know, but it's worth reflecting upon.
Did he want a reward? A round of applause for telling the East Asian forum how bad Japanese Buddhism is?
The way I see it is he didn't come to tell it's bad "in itself". He came to tell it's bad for him. It's clear from the post he wasn't coming here to insult, but to express he isn't satisfied. Yes, you can say that's a consumerist attitude towards the Dharma. "I don't like this, I wanna switch" as if it was a product. But at the same time, you must realize his intention was just to find a more proper Dharma-gate for him, not to insult anybody.
I should point out regarding ritual in a foreign language - Joseph Campbell makes the exact opposite observation. He said that the rituals of Catholicism lost power when they converted from church latin to the vernacular (English, Spanish, etc). He argues that a ritual can have more power on the mind when it's only vaguely (not intimately) understood what's being chanted, because it disengages the calculating mind. I thought this always sounded a bit like the Shin Shu struggle to drop the "hakarai".
Do we think it's bad that they lost power? They lost power - because when people understand, people get power. People reclaim the power that they delegated to rituals. When people started to read the Bible, they realized Christ died for them, and they don't need an intermediary to mediate between them and God. That they can access the grace of God directly. So of course the Church and its rituals lose the power once people understand. It's because people reclaim their own power, the power they did not know they have (because of they believed the rituals hold some hidden power). Isn't it the same with Shin? When people understand that Amida set the Vow for them and them alone, the institution and rituals will lose power. Is it good or bad?

If hearing incomprehensible words is better we could use Klingon or the Elven language invented by Tolkien. That will really halt the calculating mind!

Now that particular understanding is much closer to Chan Buddhism or at least Ippen's Pure Land, and not standard Shinshu teaching. Rennyo explicitly claims that this kind of "non-understanding" is not the Shin Dharma. Refer to Rennyo's pastoral letter On the Designation of our Tradition:
Further, we are not saved simply by repeating the Name without any understanding of it. Hence the [Larger] Sutra teaches that we “hear the Name and realize faith and joy” (Daimuryojukyo, T.12:272b; Kyogyoshinsho, T.83:601a, 605a). “Hearing the Name” is not hearing the six-character Name “na-mu-a-mi-da-butsu” unreflectively; it means that when we meet a good teacher, receive his teaching, and entrust ourselves (“namu”) to the Name (“namu-amida-butsu”), Amida Buddha unfailingly saves us. This is explained in the [Larger] Sutra as “realizing faith and joy.” Consequently, we should understand that “namu-amida-butsu” shows how he saves us.
Some use of Japanese is OK of course, like Christians use "amen" and "hallelujah" it's perfectly OK to keep some Japanese words for historical reasons, but to insist on chanting Shoshinge in Japanese is anachronistic. It is much better to read it in English. Also, chanting has no advantage over simply reading it.

Maybe if this was the approach OP's Shinshu community took instead of imitating Japanese culture, he would have not left without understanding?

Anyway, I have close to zero exp. with Western Jodo Shinshu, so I am glad to read that it is different and I learn a lot of new things from your post.
Admin_PC
Former staff member
Posts: 4860
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:17 pm

Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by Admin_PC »

Yuren wrote:iPorkChop you're right that he misunderstands Shin but I wonder is just brutally stating a fact always the best way to approach inquirers?
I guess that's the heart of my criticism. He wasn't inquiring. He was giving his swan song, his final goodbye before moving on to (what are for him) better shores. That would normally be fine, but the rationale he used was a bunch of misinformation.
Yuren wrote:My dear friend, we do not need to have an argument, you didn't do anything wrong, but the problem is that if we demand great knowledge from everyone, the Pure Land Path will become a luxury for middle class intellectuals. How is that consistent with Honen's saying that it is the path for illiterate farmers?
Actually, I appreciate your input. You've given me a lot to think about and the potential for growth from this exchange is why I haven't lobbied to have the thread locked or removed.

As far as a hefty research, Jodo Shin Shu hasn't really penetrated into the western mainstream yet. If one wants to have any idea of the teachings, they would have to either crack open a book or attend some sort of Dharma education - either an informal teaching or a formal class. I am not aware of any Shin resources available in English that promote Shinto kami worship, ancestor worship, or the other things he was asserting.
Walter Sobchak: Am I wrong?
The Dude: No you're not wrong.
Walter Sobchak: Am I wrong?
The Dude: You're not wrong Walter. You're just an asshole.
Walter Sobchak: Okay then.
Point taken. :) I'm still working on my presentation.
Yuren wrote:He didn't come to tell it's bad. He came to tell it's bad for him. It's clear from the post he wasn't coming here to insult, but to express he isn't satisfied.
Again, this is where I depart. He said these schools were incompatible with naturalist westerners and then gave false reasons for such an assessment. Legally (since it's in print), that is called "libel" - presenting misinformation as fact in order to state the inadequacy of something. [On second thought "libel" is usually used in reference to people. In this case it's more like a "straw man" - building a case based on a mischaracterization so it's that much easier to portray as inadequate]
Yuren wrote:Yes, you can say that's a consumerist attitude towards the Dharma. "I don't like this, I wanna switch" as if it was a product. But at the same time, you must realize his intention was just to find a more proper Dharma-gate for him, not to insult anybody.
I have no problem with walking away. I wish all the best for him on his new path. I was sincere on that point. It's a good thing when people find something they resonate with. My issue was the misinformation provided as to his reasoning.
Yuren wrote:Well first of all, is it bad or is it good that they lost power? Let's reflect upon this a little. We could say that magic spells lost power, say from the times of animism and shamanism. Is that good or bad? Some would say that it's good, because magical thinking was replaced by rational thinking. So yes, they lost power - because when people understand, THEY get power. For instance, a Christian no longer sees the power outside himself (in the priest reciting incomprehensible words) - but instead, sees that he is the object of salvation, that it is all for him alone. So the institution, the external forms, lose power, and what gains power instead, is his own understanding and his faith .
I think I should've been more clear. What Joseph Campbell was talking about was the power of the myth & the ritual to inspire the practitioner. When the language was a bit more unfamiliar, it engendered more reverence, and less familiarity. I'm not sure so much that it's a situation of "outside" power, but a question of impact. The fact that the ritual was not in casual English made it more impactful for those participating. At the same time, part of what I was saying is that most English speakers can pick out a lot of words in latin due to common root words. I may not know the exact meaning of "spiritus sancti" (Holy Spirit), but I can sort of figure out the meaning of "spiritus" (spirit) and "sancti" is in "sanctify" (to declare something holy) - so most people can generally get the idea. This was especially true up until the 60s when latin was a common course taught in school.
Yuren wrote:Now your understanding is much closer to Chan Buddhism or at least Ippen's Pure Land, and certainly NOT Shin's understanding of things. Rennyo explicitly claims that this kind of "non-understanding" is not the Shin Dharma.
See my point above about having a general idea of the meaning, but the lack of intimate familiarity with the language making it less casual. What you're saying here is not what I meant by "dropping of hakarai". For example, in Japanese, when you hear a lecture given in 敬語 (formal language), you tend to have a bit more respect, a bit more reverence, the mind of doubt sneaks in that much less. If someone tries to teach very casually, people don't take it seriously, and the mind of doubt sneaks in. I completely agree with you that a complete lack of understanding is a bad thing. I also agree with you that Jodo Shin Shu is not about mouthing words you don't understand, in fact I was just arguing this very point over a month ago.

Thanks for the exchange. Lots to think about!
User avatar
rory
Posts: 1574
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 8:08 am
Location: SouthEast USA

Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by rory »

quick post from me: please don't lock the thread! It's very stimulating and hearing the differences between Yuren's experience in Japan and Pork Chop's in the US (I had a similar experience with Shinshu) makes for a great exchange. Let me just throw in that I very much enjoy chanting in Sino-Japanese. Right now my practice is chanting the Lotus Sutra, I find it comforting, (I can go anywhere in the world and the service is the same), meditative, but also with an old interlinear Kempon Hokke Shu sutra book ( Romaji and an excellent English translation right below it). I can understand everything. Maybe this will be helpful to you.
I do agree with Yuren that being angry doesn't help the person who left...I love Japanese Buddhism and we can share why it's a living religion (and yes I mean religion as opposed to a western secular therapy)
with gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
User avatar
Redfaery
Posts: 569
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:14 pm
Location: Smalltown USA

Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by Redfaery »

rory wrote:quick post from me: please don't lock the thread! It's very stimulating and hearing the differences between Yuren's experience in Japan and Pork Chop's in the US (I had a similar experience with Shinshu) makes for a great exchange. Let me just throw in that I very much enjoy chanting in Sino-Japanese. Right now my practice is chanting the Lotus Sutra, I find it comforting, (I can go anywhere in the world and the service is the same), meditative, but also with an old interlinear Kempon Hokke Shu sutra book ( Romaji and an excellent English translation right below it). I can understand everything. Maybe this will be helpful to you.
I do agree with Yuren that being angry doesn't help the person who left...I love Japanese Buddhism and we can share why it's a living religion (and yes I mean religion as opposed to a western secular therapy)
with gassho
Rory
:good: I agree. Too many people in the West want to use Buddhism as some sort of self-help system, so they strip out all the important bits that make it Buddhism. It's too easy to forget that religion is a perfectly legitimate source of comfort and good not just for oneself, but for others as well.
NAMO SARASWATI DEVI
Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever. - GANDHI
I am a delicate feminine flower!!!!
User avatar
rory
Posts: 1574
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 8:08 am
Location: SouthEast USA

Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by rory »

well I'd say the secular therapy that dsaly and others secularists are looking for, negates the grand vision of Mahayana: the state of becoming a bodhisattva and a Buddha. I think also the neglect of deities, Jizo, Kannon, leads them to focus on themselves solely and forget ideas of interconnectedness and gratitude. It's really very selfish.

And yes I sat on a cushion and achieved nothing, it was only when I came to Pure Land via chanting and then Tendai & Nichiren that I developed faith and experienced the power of faith. Once that's happened you experientially know it's all true. I love Japanese Buddhism, the aesthetics, the scholarship; I love chanting, I enjoy temple services, but I kind of hate the hierarchical fossilized form it's packaged in. I agree it's killing Buddhism in Japan, better those cemetaries and temples crumble and people on their own pick up the sutras and read and practice. In the US the problem is secularization, where people believe neither in karma nor reincarnation, Kannon, the power of the sutra, mantras etc...

Tendai, I was involved ages ago but it doesn't seem to have grown at all. Sad. Though I remember that we had tons of incense and chanted the Lotus Sutra in the morning and Pure Land at night and various mantras, I don't see how it resembles the stripped down therapy that dsaly advocates unless it's been neutered.

Yuren, I agree you can do it on your own: I have an altar, I chant, I practice, I burn incense, I try to keep up on the latest scholarship so I have a good practice.
Redfaery, do you go to the the Fo Guang Temple in Raleigh, it's very good.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
Yuren
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:39 am

Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by Yuren »

You guys enjoy using Sino-Japanese, and I understand that. I enjoy using Sanskrit, I feel attracted to it for some reason. Just like Christians use some Greek and Hebrew words, it makes sense for us to use Sanskrit words (karma, buddha, tathagata, etc.) As for dharanis and mantras, it makes more sense to use Sanskrit imo. The question for me however is always: is it "just" culture, or is it the Dharma? What is the relationship between the two?
I find it comforting
I find sitting in the park listening to birds chirp even more comforting. However - is comfort what the Dharma is about? You will agree that it is important to understand the Dharma. Meaninglessness also has its place - for sure (such as the "incomprehensible way Amida saves us" or the incomprehensibility of mantras and dharanis, etc.) - but it is only one aspect. It always has to be balanced with the meaning of that meaninglessness, as it were.
(I can go anywhere in the world and the service is the same)
Maybe if you go to Nichiren temples? But I ask, if we are aiming for some kind of universality, wouldn't Sanskrit be a much better choice than Japanese? One reason is that choosing Sanskrit would not show partiality to any of the plethora of Buddhist nations, the other is obvious, that it is the original language the Mahayana Sutras were written in. And last but not least is that as Buddhism emerges in the West, it makes more sense to use the language that is related to us through common Indo-European roots. To give an example, in my native language the word for "knowledge" is "veda". There are hundreds of almost identical words. There are no such parallels with Chinese, Japanese, Korean or Vietnamese.
I do agree with Yuren that being angry doesn't help the person who left...
Yes but I also question the way he (the OP) was criticized. The OP was disappointed about his experience - I wouldn't put all blame on him. The problem with always putting blame on ourselves and never on tradition is that it allows tradition to continue unchallenged and it's what I meant when I compared it to Middle Ages Catholicism. For instance: many schools in Japan still make a "patriarchal" distinction between men and women. Should that just be accepted without question, because it's traditional? There's a lot of Indian/Chinese/Japanese "feudalism" embedded in some aspects of Buddhism.
It's too easy to forget that religion is a perfectly legitimate source of comfort and good not just for oneself, but for others as well.
It's also too easy to forget that empty ritualism and lip service is not what the Dharma is about. If it's true that the Westerner tends to make it into a self-serving system, the Japanese (at least from my personal observation) tends to make it into a ritualistic performance (Other-serving). If we are going to generalize, we should be thorough and not just generalize Westerners, but also Easterners.

Westerners tend to be very critical of "Westerners" while uncritically accepting a lot that is "Eastern", simply because it is "Eastern". This infatuation with the exotic "East" has begun in the Age of Romanticism (or before? who knows...) and has not been changed since! It's quite an interesting aspect of us Europeans ( = Westerners).

I propose we should not see the situation as "the Japanese are home in the Dharma, while we are merely foreigners"; instead, we are all foreign, us and them, and we all are working with the common goal of revitalizing the Dharma for the third millenium. I don't think it's just as simple as following exactly the forms of worship that were relevant in 11th century Japan without modifying anything.I seriously doubt that will work.

There will need to be a revitalization, a reconstruction, a reemergence, rebirth. We should study the Japanese and Chinese legacy and never ignore it, and learn from it, and practice in it, even temporarily maintain orthodoxy, but also be open, wait, and work for, a genuine expression of Dharma-Truth in the new global civilization we're living in. It won't be the self-help therapy, but it won't be a copy/paste of Japanese Buddhism, either.
User avatar
Redfaery
Posts: 569
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:14 pm
Location: Smalltown USA

Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by Redfaery »

Yes, you are correct that one shouldn't be too ritualistic. I apologize for being overly simplistic in my reply. I totally agree that ritual isn't the end-all be-all of Buddhism. But it isn't the end-all be-all of any religion, either. I speak from my experience having grown up Catholic. The services themselves were so flat to me, but the community of believers I belonged to...the shared beliefs we held...that held me in for a long time.

And rory, I will be sending you a PM soon. ;) I didn't know there was Fo Guang temple in Raleigh!
NAMO SARASWATI DEVI
Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever. - GANDHI
I am a delicate feminine flower!!!!
Yuren
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:39 am

Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by Yuren »

The services themselves were so flat to me
Me too I grew up Catholic and I was extremely bored by mass. This is the experience of the Japanese people I know who go to Buddhist temples here. They see it as an incomprehensible chore that has nothing to do with (their) life. It is just something that "has to be done", because everyone does it. Like many "Christians" don't care about Christianity except 2 times a year, maybe for Christmas, and for some reason they will ask a priest to come for a funeral even if they don't believe in Jesus Christ's resurrection. This logic of "do it even though you don't believe in it" is very effective at keeping a tradition "alive", yes, but in a zombified state, it becomes like an undead in that state between life and death, not clearly one or the other.
User avatar
Seishin
Former staff member
Posts: 1915
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:53 am
Contact:

Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by Seishin »

Seishin wrote:
dsaly1969 wrote: My current practice is very stripped down from what I used to do and includes Taking Refuge in the Three Jewels, Taking the Five Precepts, and a short meditation practice such as Ānāpānasati (mindfulness of breath) or shikantaza as I went for that Theravada (modern Vipassana Movement)/modern Zen blend so popular with us naturalistic secular Westerners.
This is very similar to Tendai practice. If you are interested in Japanese Buddhism still, you may like to take a look.
I realise my post here is easily misunderstood. My bad :oops:

What I meant to say is, the combination of chanting and meditation (samatha & vipassana) is a standard lay persons practice in our particular branch of Tendai. Not that Tendai is secular naturalistic etc. Although we mainly chant in English, myself and a number of our members also like to chant in Sino-Japanese on occasion, and what we practice in the UK is, as far as I'm aware, very much in line with traditional Tendai as practiced in Japan, including mantras, mudras, morning/evening services, nembutsu etc etc.

Sorry for my previous mindless post.

In gassho,
Seishin
Locked

Return to “East Asian Buddhism”