Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

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Saoshun
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Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by Saoshun »

Well I would suggest to research on Lao Tzu if you want naturalistic approaches for spirituality. The "deviations" comes only from lack of understanding and strong sense of "self" so the different ideas push you into differents try-outs, I don't see that as bad or something to blame (which people tends to do) it's just psycho-physical aspect of the brain and mind which causes such moves in the people body-mind, that's all and the mind and body try to set themselves into different "fresh approach" but this is sign of samsara as you can't settle on the means to your own "naturalistic" state. Means are only means, if you see means as something more than it is then you will wander for another milion kalpas.
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Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by Admin_PC »

rory wrote:I do agree with Yuren that being angry doesn't help the person who left...I love Japanese Buddhism and we can share why it's a living religion (and yes I mean religion as opposed to a western secular therapy)
Yeah I'm not sure why I come off like an angry jerk. My posting style may just be too influenced by a lot of heated debates over the years. I'm trying to work on it and will make more of an effort not to fall into the trap of rough speech.
rory wrote:Let me just throw in that I very much enjoy chanting in Sino-Japanese. Right now my practice is chanting the Lotus Sutra, I find it comforting, (I can go anywhere in the world and the service is the same), meditative, but also with an old interlinear Kempon Hokke Shu sutra book ( Romaji and an excellent English translation right below it). I can understand everything. Maybe this will be helpful to you.
This brings up a very good point. It might've been presumptuous of me to think that I could jump into chanting the Kanbun (Sino-Japanese) without spending a lot of time learning it, piece by piece. I may start working my way back to chanting in Kanbun once I can memorize the English version. I think it was easier to jump into other Kanbun chants because they were slower, with more rhythm. Trying to chant something fast in a monotonous tone requires more time spent with the words.

On a side note: I like the BDK version of the Lotus Sutra for a lot of reasons, but I think they did a pretty good job with some of the verse portions. I was able to find a really comfortable metre with some of the long verse portions (especially Chapter 1), such that it sounded like a song. Admittedly, I haven't tried any of the other versions of the Lotus Sutra; but that was something I liked about the version I worked with.

....
Yuren wrote:You guys enjoy using Sino-Japanese, and I understand that. I enjoy using Sanskrit, I feel attracted to it for some reason. Just like Christians use some Greek and Hebrew words, it makes sense for us to use Sanskrit words (karma, buddha, tathagata, etc.) As for dharanis and mantras, it makes more sense to use Sanskrit imo. The question for me however is always: is it "just" culture, or is it the Dharma? What is the relationship between the two?
Your first point about Sanskrit is kind of what I was trying to say about the use of Latin. I like Sanskrit, but I really can't pronounce a lot of it. A lot of proper names in Sanskrit are just very difficult for me to wrap my head around. Here are a couple of examples:
Jaladharagarjitaghoṣasusvaranakṣatra-rājasaṃkusumitābhijña
Kamaladalavimalanakṣatrarājasaṃkusu-mitābhijña
Even something as seemingly simple as bowing to the 3 Pure Land sages can be a bit daunting. "Mahāsthāmaprāpta Bodhisattva" and "Avalokiteśvara Bodhisattva" surely don't roll off the tongue easily. So while I may pick up Sanskrit terms for concepts that aren't easily explained in English, it's just as difficult for me as Classical Chinese, with maybe a few more common root words.

But then the question is what to chant instead? "Great Might Arrived Bodhisattva" and "Perceiver of the Cries of the World Bodhisattva" certainly aren't as fluid as "Dai Seishi Bosatsu" and "Kanzeon Bosatsu". So this gets into the second part of your question (and goes back to rory's statement above about chanting in Kanbun) ie - "When you've got the essential meaning, it can make sense to go for a more elegant form of practice".

People talk about Buddhism in the west and it mostly ends up going down the road of discussing different doctrinal points. I think it's going to be hard to say that Buddhism is truly established in the west until more of these practice-language aspects are addressed. Some folks, like Thich Nhat Hanh, City of Ten Thousand Buddhas, FGS, and Zen people in the west have done some significant work towards making viable English-language versions of these practices, with the various versions of the Heart Sutra & Diamond Sutra in English with an elegant metre, as well as other liturgical chants. There's still a long way to go though.

In the mean time, I think I may just have to do a better job of investing time learning the chants in the other language(s), so I can reconnect it back to the meaning that I've already learned in my native language. I'd rather not focus on pronunciation & learning new words in doing this. So for me, Kanbun makes the most sense. I just realized that a side benefit of being able to recite in Kanbun means that I may be able to recite it to the tune of other languages; namely Chinese. At the Chinese services I've gone to a couple times, the Vietnamese members chant in Vietnamese to the same tune as the Chinese chant. Learning the Kanbun opens this possibility. It may help me learn it too because rhythm can aide with memory.
Yuren wrote:Me too I grew up Catholic and I was extremely bored by mass. This is the experience of the Japanese people I know who go to Buddhist temples here. They see it as an incomprehensible chore that has nothing to do with (their) life. It is just something that "has to be done", because everyone does it.
My experiences were much the same in regards to Catholic mass, but I know people who are constantly inspired by it. In regards to Japanese services, this is another area where I guess my experience is unusual. One of my favorite youtube channels is this one: https://www.youtube.com/user/7676amida/videos - It's a group of Shin Buddhist ministers that post a lot of Japanese language Dharma talks that they give after they perform the chanting service. These Dharma talks are usually pretty entertaining. The main guy apparently has training in singing & acting - because he'll sometimes do karaoke versions of modern songs replacing the lyrics with Dharma teachings. He also did a video that is kind of like a traditional (Noh?) play and there are a series of videos using Manga as a teaching aide. Here's one of their Dharma talks with English subtitles if you click on the CC button:
phpBB [video]

Most of the other videos on that channel have Japanese subtitles, which you can then select the option to translate to English in the settings (gear) button.

Here's another example of an entertaining minister, this time from Jodo Shu, whom I also like a lot:
phpBB [video]

It's a sample of a dvd series from when he visited the States a few years back, but it gives you an idea of his teaching style. He gives talks all in Japanese (with English subs on the video) and they're part of the Dharma Service after the chanting. He's really funny (many of his jokes even survive translation) and he is really good at taking fairly complex topics and breaking them down into real world examples. He's the resident preacher at Chion-In, the head temple of Jodo Shu.

There are also Shin ministers like Nana Yanase who are really trying to liven things up. She sings contemporary Dharma songs that she writes, often at her temple and others throughout Japan.
phpBB [video]


It may be important to note that almost all the Japanese temples I've checked out online have "dial-a-Dharma" services available to those people who need to contact a minister for help or advice. Since Rissho-Kosei-Kai was mentioned, they have the Houza (Dharma circle), where members can sit around and discuss their experiences. Granted, Japanese religious organizations (or "~Kai") tend to be a bit more actively engaged in their services; but there are similar Dharma class offerings at many temples. It's this personal engagement that I think is the true Dharma teaching, the rest is mostly practice. Practice can maybe come off like mindless ritual, but that's really only if it's completely lacking in context (and could even then still be a practice of patience & mindfulness).
Yuren
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Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by Yuren »

Amazing stuff, iPorkChop! Thanks for sharing those videos, quite amazing and refreshing to see. Things aren't as "dead" as I thought after all. :group:
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rory
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Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by rory »

See what a great discussion, we owe gratitude to dsaly for starting this thread :namaste:

and here is something I just found a Japanese priest chanting a Lotus Sutra service in English shomyo. I find it beautiful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uahpP7vg4Zo

have no idea of his sect though I bet it's Nichiren Shu but here's his homepage Honryuji temple: http://web.people-i.ne.jp/~honryuji/
if you both could tell me I'd be very appreciative! I hope he's doing more work.

I would have no problem chanting this beautiful English shomyo, I think it's great.I agree about making Japanese culture a fetish, but at the same time I find it's important to be rooted in the past, American Buddhists shed things without understanding what they are losing. Japanese-American sects in the US like Jodo Shinshu and Nichiren Shu that are reaching out to the 3ed generation and non-Japanese seem to me best placed to make these changes.

Anyway I really love this positive sharing, thank you
:namaste:
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
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rory
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Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by rory »

Oops too late to edit but I just realized how to post a video:
phpBB [video]
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
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Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by Admin_PC »

rory wrote:and here is something I just found a Japanese priest chanting a Lotus Sutra service in English shomyo. I find it beautiful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uahpP7vg4Zo
That's awesome! I may be stealing it. :)
rory wrote:have no idea of his sect though I bet it's Nichiren Shu but here's his homepage Honryuji temple: http://web.people-i.ne.jp/~honryuji/
if you both could tell me I'd be very appreciative! I hope he's doing more work.
That website says Nichiren Shu.
rory wrote:I would have no problem chanting this beautiful English shomyo, I think it's great.I agree about making Japanese culture a fetish, but at the same time I find it's important to be rooted in the past, American Buddhists shed things without understanding what they are losing. Japanese-American sects in the US like Jodo Shinshu and Nichiren Shu that are reaching out to the 3ed generation and non-Japanese seem to me best placed to make these changes.
Some good points. That video is exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. I agree with your other point that it can definitely be problematic when relative newcomers start pushing for certain changes. People established in the original culture, who've had 3 generations (or longer) to acclimate to the new culture, are really in the best position to understand what changes can be made without losing the essence imho. Looking at the Orange County Shin Buddhist Service Book, I can see the seeds are there - lots of gathas (traditional & new) in English with sheet music (just no sutras) and hopefully they can continue to evolve. From the video, it really seems like the Nichiren chants are that much further along.
rory wrote:Anyway I really love this positive sharing, thank you
Same here, thank you!
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Ambrosius80
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Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by Ambrosius80 »

In my opinion, in reality there is no secular Buddhism, like there is no secular Christianity or secular Islam. You cannot simply look into a religion with a skeptical eye, take the teachings that appeal to you the most, disregard anything you don't believe in or accept, and call yourself a "secular" adherent of that religion. All prayers, all vows and all moral guidelines would become just empty words and redundant pretending, since there would be no purpose behind them.

Secular Buddhism is about the ego trying to convince itself that scientific materialism is superior to spiritualism, and about it cherrypicking those concepts of Buddhist philosophy that do not challenge this view and which are fully supported by science. One often hears secular Buddhists telling how Buddhism is really about self improvement and living well, while ridiculing concepts and values such as rebirth, Karma, enlightenment, bodhisattvas, the Six Realms, abstinence and monastic life. As I pointed out in one of my threads, Buddhism loses all purpose if one does not believe in the aforementioned things. Why? Because there would no longer be any serious need to attempt liberating oneself from Samsara and no need to stay morally steadfast in this life if Karma and rebirth would not exist as more than merely symbolic concepts. Buddhism would therefore be reduced to an accessory, a cool hobby to tell your friends about, something you can take and discard as you please according to what is most convenient in the situation. If your ego picks out only the things it believes to be useful and disregards everything that cannot be proven in a way satisfying to it, Buddhism becomes just a synonym for materialism and loses all aspects of spiritualism.

As a side note, I have often though of the possibility of a fully secular, fully materialistic person living a very morally upright and compassionate life. Personally I always come to the conclusion that living such a life would be either extremely hard, if not impossible. Since to such a person there would be no higher being, Karma or other factor to be mindful of or fear when making ethical choices, all of these choices would depend on the ego only. In this scenario, the person would be his own judge in every decision, would have to answer only to himself, and could freely decide the morality of his every action. Even though I fully believe an ordinary person would still stay away from very serious offenses such as murdering or rape, one would gradually allow minor moral "exceptions" to oneself, when for example violence, killing of animals, stealing or even adultery would be alright. This would gradually lead to even more serious exceptions to one's personal moral code. This is why I don't believe a regular person with no belief in anything but his own judgement can in the end be as morally upright as one guided by a belief in some force higher than him, be it a god or the law of Karma. One's own ego is a terrible judge on what is appropriate and what is not.
"What we have now is the best. He who can never be satisfied is a poor man, no matter how much he owns.

What you have results from karmic causes that you created, and what you'll gain hinges on karmic causes that you're creating."
-Master Sheng Yen
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rory
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Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by rory »

Yuren and Pork Chop; I suggest you also look for live streaming services, I just found a Nichiren Shu temple that streams live, a lot of other temples do to so give a good search.
bother the link isn't supported but you get the idea with streaming services you're part of the service and also can interact.

you don't have to go to a temple nearby that doesn't work for you. I had no clue this was so common until I looked. Japan is in the forefront of technology so I'm sure there are temples that do this. And PC if you aren't near a temple you like you can now find one and participa
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
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TheSynergist
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Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by TheSynergist »

rory wrote:well I'd say the secular therapy that dsaly and others secularists are looking for, negates the grand vision of Mahayana: the state of becoming a bodhisattva and a Buddha. I think also the neglect of deities, Jizo, Kannon, leads them to focus on themselves solely and forget ideas of interconnectedness and gratitude. It's really very selfish.

And yes I sat on a cushion and achieved nothing, it was only when I came to Pure Land via chanting and then Tendai & Nichiren that I developed faith and experienced the power of faith. Once that's happened you experientially know it's all true. I love Japanese Buddhism, the aesthetics, the scholarship; I love chanting, I enjoy temple services, but I kind of hate the hierarchical fossilized form it's packaged in. I agree it's killing Buddhism in Japan, better those cemetaries and temples crumble and people on their own pick up the sutras and read and practice. In the US the problem is secularization, where people believe neither in karma nor reincarnation, Kannon, the power of the sutra, mantras etc...

Tendai, I was involved ages ago but it doesn't seem to have grown at all. Sad. Though I remember that we had tons of incense and chanted the Lotus Sutra in the morning and Pure Land at night and various mantras, I don't see how it resembles the stripped down therapy that dsaly advocates unless it's been neutered.

Yuren, I agree you can do it on your own: I have an altar, I chant, I practice, I burn incense, I try to keep up on the latest scholarship so I have a good practice.
Redfaery, do you go to the the Fo Guang Temple in Raleigh, it's very good.
gassho
Rory
What a wonderful revelation! Yeah, I think the power of faith is something horribly neglected in many strains of Buddhism.

However, I do think that excessive ritualism (e.g., ancestor worship) can interfere with faith, which is what I think what Shinran was reacting against. Too bad that, in many places, modern Shin has degenerated to state of the OP was describing.
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Re: Moving from a more liturgical Japanese Buddhist practice

Post by Admin_PC »

rory
Thanks for the idea!
I found out that K (Rev Kosen Ishikawa) has started putting up full Jodo Shu services with chanting and Dharma talks on youtube.
I'm going to experiment this weekend and see if I can follow along. If not, then even watching it is better than nothing.
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