Do you have to uphold five percepts strictly in order to...?

[Ervin]

Hi everyone.

My question is: Do you have to uphold five precepts strictly in order for Avalokitesvara bodisattva mahasatva to help you when calling on His name, or, reciting his chapter from the Lotus sutra?

Thanks

[Matylda]

Hi everyone.

My question is: Do you have to uphold five precepts strictly in order for Avalokitesvara bodisattva mahasatva to help you when calling on His name, or, reciting his chapter from the Lotus sutra?

Thanks

And when I violate 5 precepts Avalokiteshvara will reject me? No compassion, no help? Just will send a sinner - me myself - to hell? Very interesting idea... if you read Shinran and other teachers of Pure Land doctrines you may find something opposite. It is my guess...

[Ervin]

Thanks Matyida.

Once someone told me that you have to, that's why I am asking.

[BrianG]

My question is: Do you have to uphold five precepts strictly in order for Avalokitesvara bodisattva mahasatva to help you when calling on His name, or, reciting his chapter from the Lotus sutra?

Avalokitesvara can only help you if you have the karma to be helped. If you are drinking, cheating, stealing, killing, lying, how will calling his name help?

Perhaps he would remind you to keep the precepts.

[Ayu]

The five precepts are a training.
It is very helpful to excercise it. If you do, you are trained later. Every training is hard in the beginning and it is good to start moderately. At the end, holding the five precepts is no great deal in good & normal times.

[Simon E.]

Hi everyone.

My question is: Do you have to uphold five precepts strictly in order for Avalokitesvara bodisattva mahasatva to help you when calling on His name, or, reciting his chapter from the Lotus sutra?

Thanks

No.

Or no one would ever be helped. For those who follow a sutric path the Precepts are school teachers to bring you to awareness. They are not commandments. Avalokiteshvara is a source of compassion...not the God of Evangelical Christians.

[seeker242]

Hi everyone.

My question is: Do you have to uphold five precepts strictly in order for Avalokitesvara bodisattva mahasatva to help you when calling on His name, or, reciting his chapter from the Lotus sutra?

Thanks

I don't think Avalokitesvara would be so stingy with her compassion. Avalokitesvara, by definition, is the opposite of stingy. Although, if you aren't even trying to keep them then I would imagine that it would be quite difficult, even for Avalokitesvara, to help you to begin with.

[passel]

The precepts are Avalokiteshvara.

[Matylda]

Avalokitesvara can only help you if you have the karma to be helped. If you are drinking, cheating, stealing, killing, lying, how will calling his name help?

Sounds nice.. however it would go against the intent of Avalokiteshvara.. It would mean that only nice and good beings might be helped. And this kind of concept about karma is a little bit strange. What does it mean "to have the karma to be helped"? So if I do not have then Avalokiteshvara is powerless? Even if I commit grave cries and still call AB, then the bodhisattva cannot do anything?

If I call the name of Avalokiteshvara, it is already karma... since any activity means karma. If I, a sinner, go for help of the mahasattva, how it would be possible that his vows fail? Even common human beings as we are, are able of arising some sympathy for the sinner if one shows honestly ones weakness... so we humans can forgive and help those who are low... and if sinner has honest feeling for it. Or just any feeling! So the great being, Avalokiteshvara, the 10th bhumi bodhisattva, who has his own pure land made of virtue exclusively, is unable to help me??? I cannot simpy believe such notion.. of course calling his name always helps. Since the moment of calling itself means it is moment of merit, virtue etc. since at that short moment I have to be engaged only in calling the name. In east Asia Avalokiteshvara name is explained as one who hears the calls of the suffering world... is sinner not suffering? If Avalokiteshvara designed hiself only for nice people then why became bodhisattva, who by definitione should be without any conditions???

According to Shinran, all teachings about calling holy name, which say about following precepts, are only in category of tomporary teachings not final, or absolute. And many explain the passages about following precepts as skillfull means of compassion to prevent us from more suffering, not that we will be refused or left alone while calling the holy name. I have to say, that Shinran and other masters of that kind make me believe these teachings. Since it shows true compassion. It is my personal view. I could be mistaken, however I cannot give up this kind of trust.

[Simon E.]

Avalokitesvara can only help you if you have the karma to be helped. If you are drinking, cheating, stealing, killing, lying, how will calling his name help?

Sounds nice.. however it would go against the intent of Avalokiteshvara.. It would mean that only nice and good beings might be helped. And this kind of concept about karma is a little bit strange. What does it mean "to have the karma to be helped"? So if I do not have then Avalokiteshvara is powerless? Even if I commit grave cries and still call AB, then the bodhisattva cannot do anything?

If I call the name of Avalokiteshvara, it is already karma... since any activity means karma. If I, a sinner, go for help of the mahasattva, how it would be possible that his vows fail? Even common human beings as we are, are able of arising some sympathy for the sinner if one shows honestly ones weakness... so we humans can forgive and help those who are low... and if sinner has honest feeling for it. Or just any feeling! So the great being, Avalokiteshvara, the 10th bhumi bodhisattva, who has his own pure land made of virtue exclusively, is unable to help me??? I cannot simpy believe such notion.. of course calling his name always helps. Since the moment of calling itself means it is moment of merit, virtue etc. since at that short moment I have to be engaged only in calling the name. In east Asia Avalokiteshvara name is explained as one who hears the calls of the suffering world... is sinner not suffering? If Avalokiteshvara designed hiself only for nice people then why became bodhisattva, who by definitione should be without any conditions???

According to Shinran, all teachings about calling holy name, which say about following precepts, are only in category of tomporary teachings not final, or absolute. And many explain the passages about following precepts as skillfull means of compassion to prevent us from more suffering, not that we will be refused or left alone while calling the holy name. I have to say, that Shinran and other masters of that kind make me believe these teachings. Since it shows true compassion. It is my personal view. I could be mistaken, however I cannot give up this kind of trust.

Exactly so. What you are quoting from is Hinayana with a thin veneer of Mahayana/Vajrayana .

[Matylda]

Should be:
Sounds nice.. however it would go against the intent of Avalokiteshvara.. It would mean that only nice and good beings might be helped. And this kind of concept about karma is a little bit strange. What does it mean "to have the karma to be helped"? So if I do not have then Avalokiteshvara is powerless? Even if I commit grave crimes and still call AB, then the bodhisattva cannot do anything?

[Simon E.]

Yes I was agreeing with you.

[joy&peace]

all, that I saw. .

one other point that was helpful to me - 5 precepts, and other disciplines in Buddhism - are primarily about attaining freedom. . . like, that's the purpose. .

it was helpful in not viewing them as simply legalistic procedures to follow: They are to help cure of suffering. .

so, for a particular example one might say alcoholism - or any other, I use that to illustrate it, but other causes of suffering work just as well -

but the precepts - and the path in general - is largely about freedom - indeed freedom from suffering is the real goal. . for all beings.


It's not an impossibility - there are many times when we're free from suffering - walking peacefully through nature. . . etc. Mind creates thoughts, actions and our world - so when we transform mind, we transform the world. . . one person shared that with me once. . . with warmth, and a lot of joy -

and it was very good for me; so I just wished to say -

All good things to all DW members, and for all beings in the boundless worlds.

May all be happy,
May all be healthy,
May all be at peace.

[BrianG]

Avalokitesvara can only help you if you have the karma to be helped. If you are drinking, cheating, stealing, killing, lying, how will calling his name help?

What does it mean "to have the karma to be helped"? So if I do not have then Avalokiteshvara is powerless?

Buddha's can not wash away your sins with water, and can not intervene unless you have the merit. That does not mean that calling Avalokiteshvara's name will have no effect.

If you commit a triple homicide, then chant "om mani padme hum". Is it logical to think that Avalokiteshvara, will protect you from the consequences?

[Matylda]

Avalokitesvara can only help you if you have the karma to be helped. If you are drinking, cheating, stealing, killing, lying, how will calling his name help?

What does it mean "to have the karma to be helped"? So if I do not have then Avalokiteshvara is powerless?

Buddha's can not wash away your sins with water, and can not intervene unless you have the merit. That does not mean that calling Avalokiteshvara's name will have no effect.

If you commit a triple homicide, then chant "om mani padme hum". Is it logical to think that Avalokiteshvara, will protect you from the consequences?

Dear Friend

To be honest I cannot answer your question... The reason is, that first you asked or wrote about "calling the name" and now you turn to Mani mantra of Avalokiteshvara of which I have simply no idea.

However concerning calling the name, as far as East Asian tradition which originated in the 4th century, based on Arya Nagarjuna famous writting "Easy practice", yes even if one would commit most hideous act of killing etc. one is going to be saved finally. Moreover these teachings say straightforwardly, that actually we commited them indeed in the past llives. We were not so nice people as we seem to be now. Moreover we will commit them in the future when conditions and causes will allow us to do it. The whole concept of calling the name, holy name of Avalokita, Amitabha, etc. is based on it.

Concerning being saved and the result of of being saved vs. evil karma, there are in scriptures classifications of the results. Therefore those who were careless and went to the extreme of evil, will be how to say 'hibernated', but will not suffer, however evil of the past will prevent for very long time buddhahood of those individuals. Anyway finally they will be able to attain it. So there are lowest, middle and superior, and all in between stages, which depend indeed on our past karma.

According to Shinran, those of the lowest, the evil of the evil, will be hibernated, however what is exactly meant by it, is that their mind set will be of those who have attained certain dhyanas in the form realm. And they will not suffer pain of lower realms.

I think it does not convince you in any possible way

But... there are two approaches. One is through reason and the other is based on faith.
Calling the name is basically based on the faith not on reason.

It is why Honen, Shinran and Chinese masters of the pure land tradition, stressed the aspect of faith alone.

We all have reason and logic. Even if we are stupid and wiseless... to appeal to our reason we were warned to follow precepts and to behave... not to create evil karma, since for many it will be complete downfall. But for the person of evil, who turns to the name, and has true faith, situation will be different. I understand that not everybody accepts such teachings. But you may find them in all teachings obout Other Power vs. Self Power.. or Tariki vs. Jiriki.

And in this teachings we are instructed not to worry about our merits since the highest merit is the name itself. Name of buddha or bodhisattva. So to worry about merit belongs to teachings on the self power, which are said to be unable to save us. Teachings about the name say, that it is simply not possible.

However concerning Mani mantra, sorry I do not know what teachings are applied to it.

[DGA]

BrianG:

Matylda's explanation corresponds exactly to how I've been taught.

If you're looking for a textual reference, see Lotus Sutra, chapter 25. it's chanted regularly in all the Mahayana schools of East Asia that I know of.

[Admin_PC]

I believe all forms of Buddhism teach that repentance reduces the karmic repercussions of certain actions.
Furthermore in all forms of Buddhism, certain actions are considered meritorious and can run "interference" against unskillful actions.
The analogy used for the second one is salt dropped into a glass of water, versus salt dropped into a freshwater lake or river.
Lastly, thinking about a Buddha is recognized in all forms of Buddhism as an extremely meritorious action.
In the case of calling on the Name, wouldn't it be a case of all three?
Calling implies we know we did something wrong, the Name implies partaking in the merit of thinking about a being with infinite merit, and the end result being an outcome that is much less reduced in intensity than it would be otherwise...
So even if you assume that Noble beings can only help if "you have the merit", the calling on the name with Faith sets the stage for intervention...

[tingdzin]

I am in agreement with the consensus above, which answers are mostly good. If called upon sincerely, Avalokitesvara will always help -- but it may not be exactly the sort of help you had in mind.

[Lazy_eye]

I would like to know more about the kinds of help that Kuanyin/Avalokitesvara provides. I find contemplating Kuanyin helps bring about a wholesome mind state, but when we talk about "help" or "intervention" it sounds like some kind of action is taking place, i.e. helping me find a taxi or solve a math problem.

Sorry if this is a dumb question -- I've been wondering about it for awhile. Generally when I think about help from Kuanyin, it means that contemplating her helps me become more compassionate. That is, it is listening to Kuanyin the way one would listen to a good teacher. And then if I act more compassionately as a result, my karma will be improved. So I have received help in that sense.

[DGA]

Sorry if this is a dumb question -- I've been wondering about it for awhile. Generally when I think about help from Kuanyin, it means that contemplating her helps me become more compassionate. That is, it is listening to Kuanyin the way one would listen to a good teacher. And then if I act more compassionately as a result, my karma will be improved. So I have received help in that sense.

that's more or less how I've been taught. When we chant chapter 25 of the Lotus Sutra, which is dedicated to Kannon--and this is per the translation that we use at Tendai Buddhist Institute--we are exhorted to "contemplate the power of the cry regarder" again and again, and that this has the power to transform different kinds of situations one might find oneself in. Contemplating the power of the cry regarder is contemplating and nurturing compassion in oneself--becoming capable of hearing and responding to the sufferings of others. Potent stuff.