Is Zen pointless without a teacher?

[明安 Myoan]

This has probably been asked ad nauseum.
Is it pointless to attempt to practice Zen without an active relationship with a teacher?

In my case, I practice Pure Land, yet find meditation helpful and am most familiar/comfortable with Zen as another school.
Rather than try to combine the two practices, I see Zen, the bodhisattva vows, the 10 Grave Precepts and such as my duty in this life, knowing full well my effort is tiny and virtue small, so I rely on Amida.
That said, work makes it very difficult for me to regularly attend any temple, let alone see a teacher often enough to call it a relationship.
I'm lucky if I can get to a temple once a month.
I've seen time and time again that Zen is a relationship with a teacher, not a book.
So what do people in my situation generally do? I can't imagine every person who practices Zen or Chan is in a teacher's pocket.

Thanks

[tingdzin]

Keep sitting. Someday you may have more opportunity to meet and work with a teacher, and even if you do not, the practice of seated meditation is never wasted -- PROVIDED you exert some sincere effort, and don't start deluding yourself (which is the big if). If you are honest and clean, then the work will be good (to channel Papa).

True Zen isn't for everybody, and while a relationship with a real teacher is necessary to understand the deep aspects, there are many Zen practitioners who have had the advantage of a real teacher, but have wasted it.

[Fortyeightvows]

what does 'to channel papa' mean?

[Wayfarer]

I used to post on ZFI. They were pretty insistent on the necessity of finding a group and practicing with a teacher. I could see their point - there is a lot of mis-information around and in this matter, it is easy to be mislead. If I lived in SF I would probably attend SFZC or one of the other sitting groups in the Bay area, but I've never found a Zen sangha I wanted to join here in Sydney. Not through want of trying, and not because I was being hard-to-please, I don't feel. But I think of all the Buddhist books I have read, it is Zen books which have informed my practice the most, and I really do try and maintain the kind of Soto Zen approach of 'just sitting'. I feel closer to East Asian Buddhism than any other orientation. So I don't think that is pointless, but whose to say, it might have been very different had I found a Zen teacher.

[Dan74]

We are all different and of course mileage will vary, but I take teachers' admonitions that say that Zen is to be practiced with a true teacher very seriously.

That said, sitting meditation 'Zen-style' can still be very useful without a teacher, but I guess it won't be Zen. Zen, the way I understand it, is seeing your original nature and then proceeding to cultivate the skillful functioning. This is very tricky undertaking - there are just too many ways in which we are liable to get stuck, sidetracked, misled, etc. Hence the need for the teacher.

But if you want to practice Pure Land and support it with Zen-style meditation, then my recommendation would be to establish some kind of a relationship, even one by correspondence, with a true Zen teacher. I know some accept such students. When I was in Turkey some years back, I met a lady who was a long-distance student of Edward Espe Brown and they did skype sits, seishins, etc. There are good people around who do this. I'd look around and approach someone you were inspired by and see what they say.

_/|\_

[jundo cohen]

We are all different and of course mileage will vary, but I take teachers' admonitions that say that Zen is to be practiced with a true teacher very seriously.

That said, sitting meditation 'Zen-style' can still be very useful without a teacher, but I guess it won't be Zen. Zen, the way I understand it, is seeing your original nature and then proceeding to cultivate the skillful functioning. This is very tricky undertaking - there are just too many ways in which we are liable to get stuck, sidetracked, misled, etc. Hence the need for the teacher.

This is right.

I would offer that it is --not strictly necessary-- to have a teacher to practice Zen Buddhism, historical polemics to that effect by Dogen and some other teachers of the past aside. Some of that insistence was political, in an effort to muster students, and part was a worship of "Lineage" and the "Zen Master", which has played a very central role in Zen Buddhism over the centuries.

That being said, having a good teacher and a supportive Sangha community is almost a necessity, almost indispensible, in my view, for purely practical purposes. Why would one not benefit from experienced guides who have "been around the block", as well as experienced and helpful "friends along the way"? I have seen many folks do quite well on their own with their Zafu and their books, and they are fine without a community or guide. But I have seen so many more folks spin off into all kinds of crazy beliefs and eccentric directions on their own, falling into some dark places too, that I believe a good guide helps keep on on the good path (not unlike walking a mountain at night, in that regard). Of course, some folks fall off the cliff even with a teacher (as do some of the teachers!), and we each need to do our own walking, but it is good to have someone to point out where sure footing and the quicksand is to be found. Zen cannot be taught, but sometimes one needs a teacher to help one figure out what that "cannot be taught" truly means.

Not every teacher is the right teacher for all people. In my case, I am precisely the right teacher for some folks whose Karma has brought to my door and there is a wondrous timeless chemistry between us, very wrong for others with other chemistry who need something else, and some folks in between. (I am also the wrong teacher for folks who don't "get-non-get" the flavor of Shikantaza I point out). That aspect is like many things in life. One can follow one's heart, but one does not truly know who is a "right teacher" for you until you have spent time (even years together). Sometimes the right teacher in one part of life can be wrong later (and the reverse), and we all benefit from learning from many many teachers as well.

I hope that helps.

Gassho, Jundo

[Astus]

What do you call Zen?

There are certainly some elements where you need someone you recognise as a teacher, mostly to utilise the benefits of having discussions with a wise person.

Otherwise, if by Zen you mean counting your breath while seated, or other methods, you may learn them from various sources, including Pure Land teachers, especially those of Chinese and Vietnamese origin, since there isn't really such a sectarian separation in those traditions.

And if you call Zen the "buddha-nature" or "seeing nature", it cannot be taught even by the Buddha.

[seeker242]

Is it pointless to attempt to practice Zen without an active relationship with a teacher?

Pointless? No, because the point is still to see your true nature. Doesn't matter if you never see a teacher, that will always be the point of it! Just because it's helpful to see teachers doesn't mean it pointless without one.

[DGA]

Is it pointless to attempt to practice Zen without an active relationship with a teacher?

Pointless? No, because the point is still to see your true nature. Doesn't matter if you never see a teacher, that will always be the point of it! Just because it's helpful to see teachers doesn't mean it pointless without one.

The point is to realize your Buddha nature--not only to catch a glimpse, as you describe, but to stabilize it, cultivate it, &c. Is that possible without the transmission of tradition and teacher?

I keep directing people to this thread because it describes the matter so clearly:

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... 40#p298602

[DGA]

There are certainly some elements where you need someone you recognise as a teacher, mostly to utilise the benefits of having discussions with a wise person.

Are you speaking from experience, Astus?

[DGA]

This has probably been asked ad nauseum.
Is it pointless to attempt to practice Zen without an active relationship with a teacher?

In my case, I practice Pure Land, yet find meditation helpful and am most familiar/comfortable with Zen as another school.
Rather than try to combine the two practices, I see Zen, the bodhisattva vows, the 10 Grave Precepts and such as my duty in this life, knowing full well my effort is tiny and virtue small, so I rely on Amida.
That said, work makes it very difficult for me to regularly attend any temple, let alone see a teacher often enough to call it a relationship.
I'm lucky if I can get to a temple once a month.
I've seen time and time again that Zen is a relationship with a teacher, not a book.
So what do people in my situation generally do? I can't imagine every person who practices Zen or Chan is in a teacher's pocket.

Thanks

You sound like a Tendai practitioner at heart. It's a shame there's no Tendai temple near you.

***

Other relevant threads

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=20915

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=21078

[Astus]

Are you speaking from experience, Astus?

Experience of what? Having a discussion with a teacher?

BTW, I was referring primarily to how Japanese Rinzai and Western Zen communities like including interviews in their programmes. Although probably it could be done online as well.

[Matt J]

Evidently, you've never experienced dokusan with a Rinzai teacher.

Are you speaking from experience, Astus?

Experience of what? Having a discussion with a teacher?

BTW, I was referring primarily to how Japanese Rinzai and Western Zen communities like including interviews in their programmes. Although probably it could be done online as well.

[Astus]

Evidently, you've never experienced dokusan with a Rinzai teacher.

What makes that evident?

[Matt J]

That you think it can be done online, for one, and calling it a "discussion".

Evidently, you've never experienced dokusan with a Rinzai teacher.

What makes that evident?

[Astus]

That you think it can be done online, for one, and calling it a "discussion".

Why couldn't it be done online? As for calling it a discussion, I don't see it as anything worse than interview, and maybe even better in some aspects - an exchange of expressions.

[Matt J]

For the same reason that cybersex isn't the same as sex. Online interaction as we have it simply isn't as immersive as real-time, face-to-face confrontation.

Why couldn't it be done online?

[Astus]

For the same reason that cybersex isn't the same as sex. Online interaction as we have it simply isn't as immersive as real-time, face-to-face confrontation.

That might be so for Rinzai teachers like Eido Tai Shimano and Joshu Sasaki. But otherwise it may still be manageable, even if not exactly the same, since it is not a requirement to have physical contact normally.

[Dan74]

For the same reason that cybersex isn't the same as sex. Online interaction as we have it simply isn't as immersive as real-time, face-to-face confrontation.

That might be so for Rinzai teachers like Eido Tai Shimano and Joshu Sasaki. But otherwise it may still be manageable, even if not exactly the same, since it is not a requirement to have physical contact normally.

Umm... ((inappropriate humour?))

Seriously, of course real-time face-to-face interaction is an entirely different experience than exchanging messages/letters/etc. And the potential of such interaction is completely different. Does it really need to be argued??

[boda]

For the same reason that cybersex isn't the same as sex. Online interaction as we have it simply isn't as immersive as real-time, face-to-face confrontation.

That might be so for Rinzai teachers like Eido Tai Shimano and Joshu Sasaki. But otherwise it may still be manageable, even if not exactly the same, since it is not a requirement to have physical contact normally.

Umm... ((inappropriate humour?))

Seriously, of course real-time face-to-face interaction is an entirely different experience than exchanging messages/letters/etc. And the potential of such interaction is completely different. Does it really need to be argued??

You must have heard of video conferencing, Dan.