Klesas are Bodhi & dating 18 y/o girls.

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Myoho-Nameless
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Re: Klesas are Bodhi & dating 18 y/o girls.

Post by Myoho-Nameless »

Taco_Rice wrote: I can only agree with "it's not my responsibility" in an "upaya," tame the shrews of society kind of way. You can't actually opt out of human nature.
I can opt out of my obligations to encourage harmony between men and women, be they confucian, or Buddhist. I didn't start the war that I see and I am not going to fight it.

Oh I forgot, she must be drug free.
Taco_Rice wrote: You a lie.
no u
"Keep The Gods Out Of It. Swear On Your Heads. Which I Will Take If You Break Your Vow."- Geralt of Rivia
tingdzin
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Re: Klesas are Bodhi & dating 18 y/o girls.

Post by tingdzin »

Thanks for the lengthy excerpt, Queequeg; I may buy that book just on the strength of it. (Ow! Just saw the price on Amazon -- maybe I'll try the library instead.) Definitely worth a ponder. Is this the best book on the subject in English, or can you recommend others as well?
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Re: Klesas are Bodhi & dating 18 y/o girls.

Post by Taco_Rice »

smcj wrote:I don't know about that, but I do know about the "suffering of change". If you've got a spare minute you might want to look it up.
Tell it to Drake.
smcj wrote:Right. And Larry Flynt is Maitreya.
Steven Seagal is Chungdrag Dorje's tulku.

¯_(ツ)_/¯
Myoho-Nameless wrote:
Taco_Rice wrote: I can only agree with "it's not my responsibility" in an "upaya," tame the shrews of society kind of way. You can't actually opt out of human nature.
I can opt out of my obligations to encourage harmony between men and women, be they confucian, or Buddhist. I didn't start the war that I see and I am not going to fight it.
You a casualty bruh.

Seriously, some types of social norms will tend more towards a peaceful and awakened society than others. This is basic Buddhism type stuff.
Oh I forgot, she must be drug free.
Cross Rastafarians off the list, I suppose. Just follow your heart like a dowsing rod to self knowledge. When you can't be good, I guess you have to get good at it.

:shrug:
Last edited by Taco_Rice on Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
When facing a single tree, if you look at a single one of its red leaves, you will not see all the others. When the eye is not set on any one leaf, and you face the tree with nothing at all in mind, any number of leaves are visible to the eye without limit. But if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there. One who has understood this is no different from Kannon with a thousand arms and a thousand eyes.
— Takuan Sōhō, the Unfettered Mind
Myoho-Nameless
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Re: Klesas are Bodhi & dating 18 y/o girls.

Post by Myoho-Nameless »

Taco_Rice wrote:
Seriously, some types of social norms will tend more towards a peaceful and awakened society than others.
And I wish their advocates the best of luck. But thats all from me to them.

Honestly I think they are doomed and we are moving into something else.
"Keep The Gods Out Of It. Swear On Your Heads. Which I Will Take If You Break Your Vow."- Geralt of Rivia
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Re: Klesas are Bodhi & dating 18 y/o girls.

Post by Taco_Rice »

Myoho-Nameless wrote:And I wish their advocates the best of luck. But thats all from me to them.

Honestly I think they are doomed and we are moving into something else.
Just don't come crying to me when dzogchungpa gets you.
When facing a single tree, if you look at a single one of its red leaves, you will not see all the others. When the eye is not set on any one leaf, and you face the tree with nothing at all in mind, any number of leaves are visible to the eye without limit. But if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there. One who has understood this is no different from Kannon with a thousand arms and a thousand eyes.
— Takuan Sōhō, the Unfettered Mind
Myoho-Nameless
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Re: Klesas are Bodhi & dating 18 y/o girls.

Post by Myoho-Nameless »

dun worry guy, when I cry I tend to seek solitude.
"Keep The Gods Out Of It. Swear On Your Heads. Which I Will Take If You Break Your Vow."- Geralt of Rivia
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Re: Klesas are Bodhi & dating 18 y/o girls.

Post by Taco_Rice »

Myoho-Nameless wrote:dun worry guy, when I cry I tend to seek solitude.
That's where he'll be waiting.
When facing a single tree, if you look at a single one of its red leaves, you will not see all the others. When the eye is not set on any one leaf, and you face the tree with nothing at all in mind, any number of leaves are visible to the eye without limit. But if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there. One who has understood this is no different from Kannon with a thousand arms and a thousand eyes.
— Takuan Sōhō, the Unfettered Mind
Myoho-Nameless
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Re: Klesas are Bodhi & dating 18 y/o girls.

Post by Myoho-Nameless »

Taco_Rice wrote:
Myoho-Nameless wrote:dun worry guy, when I cry I tend to seek solitude.
That's where he'll be waiting.
I bet he can't game, the wuss.
"Keep The Gods Out Of It. Swear On Your Heads. Which I Will Take If You Break Your Vow."- Geralt of Rivia
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Re: Klesas are Bodhi & dating 18 y/o girls.

Post by Taco_Rice »

Myoho-Nameless wrote:I bet he can't game, the wuss.
Man up. :twisted:
tingdzin wrote:Thanks for the lengthy excerpt, Queequeg; I may buy that book just on the strength of it. (Ow! Just saw the price on Amazon -- maybe I'll try the library instead.) Definitely worth a ponder. Is this the best book on the subject in English, or can you recommend others as well?
I have Ziporyn's book. It's definitely some involved reading and I haven't even finished it. Monsieur Queequeg, the Nichiren Buddhist of French Canadian extraction, was actually the person who introduced me to this work, but I'm not entirely sure that I find his interpretations of T'ien T'ai helpful from my perspective, hence this thread. For the most part, what I've been able to make of the idea that "klesas are bodhi" is that we become more enlightened by recognizing our "bad thoughts" and motivations instead of trying to block them out or eliminate them. Maybe it even means that we can find awakening while submersed (drowning, even,) in the samsaric passions of the flesh as one epistle attributed to Nichiren states:

http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/35

Chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo during the physical union of man and woman is indeed what is called “earthly desires are enlightenment,” and “the sufferings of birth and death are nirvana.” “The sufferings of birth and death are nirvana” exists only in realizing that the entity of life throughout its cycle of birth and death is neither born nor destroyed. The Universal Worthy Sutra states, “Without either cutting off earthly desires or separating themselves from the five desires, they can purify all their senses and wipe away all their offenses.” Great Concentration and Insight says, “The ignorance and dust of desires are enlightenment, and the sufferings of birth and death are nirvana.” The “Life Span” chapter of the Lotus Sutra says, “At all times I think to myself: How can I cause living beings to gain entry into the unsurpassed way and quickly acquire the body of a Buddha?” The “Expedient Means” chapter says, “The characteristics of the world are constantly abiding.” Surely such statements refer to these principles. Thus what is called the entity is none other than Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.
When facing a single tree, if you look at a single one of its red leaves, you will not see all the others. When the eye is not set on any one leaf, and you face the tree with nothing at all in mind, any number of leaves are visible to the eye without limit. But if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there. One who has understood this is no different from Kannon with a thousand arms and a thousand eyes.
— Takuan Sōhō, the Unfettered Mind
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Re: Klesas are Bodhi & dating 18 y/o girls.

Post by dzogchungpa »

Myoho-Nameless wrote:
Taco_Rice wrote:
Myoho-Nameless wrote:dun worry guy, when I cry I tend to seek solitude.
That's where he'll be waiting.
I bet he can't game, the wuss.
This is an egregious example of wuss shaming. :crying:

I've had it with these microaggressions, I'm going to my safe space.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Myoho-Nameless
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Re: Klesas are Bodhi & dating 18 y/o girls.

Post by Myoho-Nameless »

Taco_Rice wrote: http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/35

Chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo during the physical union of man and woman is indeed what is called “earthly desires are enlightenment,”
Looks like i'm joining tinder. I just hope that chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo during the digital union of scattershot ammo and enemy newb is also indeed what is called "earthy desires are enlightenment".

srsly tho.

So thats Nichiren. You know, that sort of thing was what made me think twice initially about looking into this buddhism.
Taco_Rice wrote:For the most part, what I've been able to make of the idea that "klesas are bodhi" is that we become more enlightened by recognizing our "bad thoughts" and motivations instead of trying to block them out or eliminate them.
Sounds reasonable
"Keep The Gods Out Of It. Swear On Your Heads. Which I Will Take If You Break Your Vow."- Geralt of Rivia
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Re: Klesas are Bodhi & dating 18 y/o girls.

Post by Taco_Rice »

dzogchungpa wrote: This is an egregious example of wuss shaming. :crying:
You like it, dzogchungpa. :twisted: Dzogchungpa likes it everybody. :roll:
Myoho-Nameless wrote:
Taco_Rice wrote: http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/35

Chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo during the physical union of man and woman is indeed what is called “earthly desires are enlightenment,”
Looks like i'm joining tinder. I just hope that chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo during the digital union of scattershot ammo and enemy newb is also indeed what is called "earthy desires are enlightenment".

srsly tho.

So thats Nichiren. You know, that sort of thing was what made me think twice initially about looking into this buddhism.
Speaking of scattershot, I was thinking the other day about how roadkill may actually be one of the most Buddhist ways of obtaining meat, right next to consuming a naturally fallen animal...

The teaching above (purportedly) from Nichiren is important for regular "lay" people to know there is a way to practice to reach enlightenment even while engrossed in defilements. I've defaulted back to my interest in Zen—to what I know—but my main inspiration might have more to do with what I've seen people do with the idea one way or another. The OP is actually inspired by a conversation I had with a Buddhist hoosier on a trip I took. I got a dating site message from an 18 year old polyglot with a Muslim background and a palpable lack of a father or other strong authority figure in her life and brought the scenario up to him in a "why not" kind of way. Where are the brakes, and if there aren't any, why not just crash into that bush? So to speak. He just narrowed his icy, money green eyes into the shape of rice grains, as if offended, and skirted the topic. Then he kicked a puppy and said, "I despise living things!" I think he prays to Mara for children to get sick.

Someone pointed out that the concept in discussion is hongaku thought and part of Zen anyway. I'm just looking for different perspectives.
When facing a single tree, if you look at a single one of its red leaves, you will not see all the others. When the eye is not set on any one leaf, and you face the tree with nothing at all in mind, any number of leaves are visible to the eye without limit. But if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there. One who has understood this is no different from Kannon with a thousand arms and a thousand eyes.
— Takuan Sōhō, the Unfettered Mind
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Re: Klesas are Bodhi & dating 18 y/o girls.

Post by Astus »

Queequeg wrote:This is a mistaken gloss. This is the Separate/Special or Provisional Mahayana view I pointed out is wrong.
How so? Zhiyi does not seem to say anything contradictory, he only takes a different way in explaining it. As he is quoted:

"He comprehends that the realm of evil is itself the realm of actuality [i.e., the dharma-nature, the absolute], and thus can attain liberation even in the midst of the midst of the five unforgivable sins."
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Klesas are Bodhi & dating 18 y/o girls.

Post by Queequeg »

Because Muller's definition expresses a Two Truth formulation privileging non-substantiality. Threefold Inclusive Truth based explanation must refer to the absolute and unavoidable expression as the relative opened by the absolute. It ought to also mention the Buddha function and preclusion of completely eradicating evil which stands in contrast to most interpretations of Buddhism and is relevant to the pith statement "klesa are bodhi."

But carry on. You've found a quote that backs confirms your views.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Klesas are Bodhi & dating 18 y/o girls.

Post by Queequeg »

tingdzin wrote:Thanks for the lengthy excerpt, Queequeg; I may buy that book just on the strength of it. (Ow! Just saw the price on Amazon -- maybe I'll try the library instead.) Definitely worth a ponder. Is this the best book on the subject in English, or can you recommend others as well?
Yeah, expensive. Substance wise, it is a good value.

Best overview of Tientai in English I've found. He tends to use a lot of Western philosophy to compare the ideas, but it works. It's actually a study of a rather late patriarch who threatened ritual suicide and the argument that this is a valid interpretation of Zhiyi. Leave that to your judgment.

Other excellent texts, especially to understand Threefold Inclusive Truth which is the base of Zhiyi's teachings are Swanson's Tientai Philosophy and Ng's Tientai and Early Madhyamika. Ng's is a critique of Swanson. Ziporyn comes down on the side of Ng.

There is also Hurvitz's bio which is outdated and heavily crticized in respects but still a good source.

Swanson has a translation of the Moho chih kuan of the first 6 chapters published by Kosei. The complete translation is coming.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Klesas are Bodhi & dating 18 y/o girls.

Post by tingdzin »

Thanks, Queequeg :namaste:
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Re: Klesas are Bodhi & dating 18 y/o girls.

Post by Anders »

Bhikshu dharmamitra has also translated the Mohezhiguan in full
http://www.kalavinka.org/kp_book_pages/ ... k_page.htm

as well as Zhiyi's "Six Dharma Gates to the Sublime."
http://www.kalavinka.org/kp_book_pages/ ... k_page.htm
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Klesas are Bodhi & dating 18 y/o girls.

Post by Astus »

Anders wrote:Bhikshu dharmamitra has also translated the Mohezhiguan in full
http://www.kalavinka.org/kp_book_pages/ ... k_page.htm
That is the Xiaozhiguan (小止観 - Small Calming-Insight), written before the MHZG.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Klesas are Bodhi & dating 18 y/o girls.

Post by Taco_Rice »

I guess I don't understand hongaku. I guess my question from here would be, "Where are the 'brakes' on this kind of thought?" For the sake of discussion, assume you're trying to explain to Pablo Escobar how pursuing desires can lead one to good. Also, I would like to request a recommendation for any particular work I could study to understand hongaku and it's moral implications.
When facing a single tree, if you look at a single one of its red leaves, you will not see all the others. When the eye is not set on any one leaf, and you face the tree with nothing at all in mind, any number of leaves are visible to the eye without limit. But if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there. One who has understood this is no different from Kannon with a thousand arms and a thousand eyes.
— Takuan Sōhō, the Unfettered Mind
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Re: Klesas are Bodhi & dating 18 y/o girls.

Post by Anders »

Taco_Rice wrote:I guess I don't understand hongaku. I guess my question from here would be, "Where are the 'brakes' on this kind of thought?" For the sake of discussion, assume you're trying to explain to Pablo Escobar how pursuing desires can lead one to good. Also, I would like to request a recommendation for any particular work I could study to understand hongaku and it's moral implications.
I think this is part of the reason you end up with esoteric teachings. Basically, the precepts and your roots of goodness are the brakes.

Nagarjuna has a nice simile on all this to show how these teachings only work in a proper context:
  • ... a person who contemplates true emptiness has first gone through an incalculable amount of giving, upholding of precepts, and dhyaana absorption. His mind is soft and pliant and his fetters are but scant. Afterwards, he gains the realization of true emptiness. In the case of one who holds to erroneous views, there have been none of these endeavors. He simply wishes to seize upon emptiness by resorting to erroneous thoughts associated with speculation and discrimination. This is comparable to the man of rural origins who, having never seen salt before, observed a patrician flavoring meat and vegetables with salt before eating them. He asked, "Why do you do that?"

    The reply: "It is because this salt is able to make everything taste delectable."

    This man then thought, "If this salt is able to make everything taste delectable, then of course one will certainly want more flavor yet." He then foolishly scooped up salt until he had filled his mouth, and then ate it. The intensity of the saltiness injured his mouth, after which he asked, "Why did you claim that salt makes for delectability?"

    The patrician replied, "You fool. With something like this, you must carefully measure how much to mix in order to make things delicious. How could you just eat salt by itself?"

    One who is wanting in wisdom hears of the emptiness entryway to liberation but fails to cultivate all manner of meritorious qualities. He wishes only to gain emptiness. This amounts to using erroneous views to cut off all roots of goodness.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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