is Cheontae/Tendai Seon/Zen and Pureland is the same?

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ShineeSeoul
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is Cheontae/Tendai Seon/Zen and Pureland is the same?

Post by ShineeSeoul »

Hi

I basically don't see the big deal between these schools, they are the same actually, all of them hold on the basic of Mahayana Buddhism

all of them do recite Amitabha Name, and other Buddhas names, recite Mantras(though some choose to focus on different one), they do same type of Bowing, agreeing that Shamatha and Vipassyana must be the basic of the meditation, though there is some differences of the way of meditation they do

so why there is big deal between schools? and what sect you must follow?
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Re: is Cheontae/Tendai Seon/Zen and Pureland is the same?

Post by Seishin »

There are differences, and there aren't differences. At the end of the day it's all the Buddha Dharma, so I wouldn't worry so much about trying to self identify with one school or another. :smile:
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Re: is Cheontae/Tendai Seon/Zen and Pureland is the same?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

All the Buddhist schools (sects) have a lot in common, but some more than others.
The biggest separation is between Theravada and all the others, which are usually called 'Mahayana'.
The next biggest is within Mahayana and separates 'Vajrayana' from all the other Mahayana schools, as we do here on Dharma Wheel's index page, except that we call the others "East Asian Buddhism".
All the schools within this group have a lot of similarities, as you say.
Some of the differences are more to do with language and culture than teachings, e.g. Chan (Chinese), Seon (Korean) and Zen (Japanese).
There is a lot to learn!

:namaste:
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Re: is Cheontae/Tendai Seon/Zen and Pureland is the same?

Post by DGA »

ShineeSeoul wrote:
so why there is big deal between schools? and what sect you must follow?
I think people make a big deal out of it for no good reason. It is important to be in a situation where you can learn, grow, and practice well. The name of the temple or sect is much less important than what you are able to learn inside.
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Re: is Cheontae/Tendai Seon/Zen and Pureland is the same?

Post by Simon E. »

Part of the problem it seems to me is a lurking suspicion that another school might suit us better.

The important thing is not an endless comparison or attempting to be being all things to all men.

It's doing a little shopping around and then settling down to one school and following it to the end.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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ShineeSeoul
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Re: is Cheontae/Tendai Seon/Zen and Pureland is the same?

Post by ShineeSeoul »

I know actually there is differnces between Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana

but its noticeable that Mahayana always have issues inside it, and for some, each school inside Mahayana is big issue, which I dont agree, I think Mahayana Buddhism is one(except in some case like Niechern Buddhism) which is seems a bit more different, but other schools are the same to me at least, and stressing about differences doesnt make sense
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Re: is Cheontae/Tendai Seon/Zen and Pureland is the same?

Post by Astus »

ShineeSeoul wrote:so why there is big deal between schools? and what sect you must follow?
Devotional practices of the laity and the monastic regulations are similar in East Asia, although Japan is somewhat different in its monastic set up. As for the differences between Tiantai, Chan, and Jingtu, there are a few actually. What should be clear, however, is that except for Japan, these are not really sects existing as distinct organisations, but rather areas of study. It's similar to how while all South Asian Buddhists are put under the category of Theravada, there are numerous groups that follow different methods and philosophies.

Tiantai has its own practices (e.g. samatha-vipasyana, four samadhis) and doctrines (e.g. three truths, 3000 worlds in a thought). It is a fairly comprehensive teaching of Mahayana that organises all into its own system. Those on this forum who specialise in it can certainly tell more, plus the differences between Tiantai in the various countries.

Chan in China is mostly a general term for Buddhism, and monasteries are usually called Chan temples, but this does not have any effect on what actually happens there. If we were to narrow it down to something actually related to Bodhidharma's traditions, Chan exists primarily as the practice of huatou and the occasional references to Chan stories. If you look at Ting Chen's and Cheng Kuan's manuals, you'll see that they describe Tiantai and classic Indian methods, even though both are nominally Chan. But of course there are teachers who actually specialise in the teachings of the historical Chan School, but again, it is nothing exclusive.

Seon in Korea is heavily influenced by the teachings of Wonhyo, Jinul, and Hyujeong, who are in turn continue the type of Chan propagated by Zongmi, Yongming, and Dahui. It is a combination of Huayan/Hwa'eom theory with Chan/Seon huatou/hwadu practice. But besides that there are individual differences between what a specific teacher or group follows. For instance, Seungsan, founder of the Kwan Um Zen School, taught koan practice (Japanese style) instead of hwadu meditation, while Daehaeng, founder of the Hanmaum Seon Centre, did not teach either hwadu or koan practice.

Zen in Japan is another story. Today they differentiate three branches: Soto, Rinzai, and Obaku. Soto, at least its modern form, is focused on seated meditation as its central method, and doctrinally they concentrate on the works of their Japanese founder. Rinzai and Obaku are not really two schools. On one hand, they have a joint council as a unified representational body, on the other there are several independent monastic groups within Rinzai. They generally follow the methods propagated by Hakuin, i.e. koan practice, that is somewhat separate from the huatou/hwadu style. It is also important to note that in Japan most of the monastics (clergy) are non-celibate, unlike in other countries where they still follow that full Pratimoksha.

Pure Land in China and Korea is not a separate school but, as noted before, a type of practice. What generally unifies Pure Land followers everywhere is the intention to attain birth in Sukhavati, but since practically any Mahayana practitioner can have such a goal, it is not that simple to draw some clear lines. So we could say that those who focus on some kind of practice centred on Amitabha and wish such a birth are those who could be considered Pure Land followers. Japan again presents a unique situation where there are some schools - independent organisations - that explicitly focus on Amitabha and birth in Sukhavati in an exclusive way.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: is Cheontae/Tendai Seon/Zen and Pureland is the same?

Post by Seishin »

Astus raises a good point. Although the teachings are similar in many ways, if you pick up a zen manual and practice from it, you are not practicing "Pureland Buddhism" or "Tendai Buddhism", and visa versa. There are nuanced differences.
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Re: is Cheontae/Tendai Seon/Zen and Pureland is the same?

Post by ShineeSeoul »

Seishin wrote:Astus raises a good point. Although the teachings are similar in many ways, if you pick up a zen manual and practice from it, you are not practicing "Pureland Buddhism" or "Tendai Buddhism", and visa versa. There are nuanced differences.
not really....Zen still practice the recitation of Amitabha, they might do it for different reason but they still do it
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ShineeSeoul
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Re: is Cheontae/Tendai Seon/Zen and Pureland is the same?

Post by ShineeSeoul »

Astus wrote:
ShineeSeoul wrote:so why there is big deal between schools? and what sect you must follow?
Devotional practices of the laity and the monastic regulations are similar in East Asia, although Japan is somewhat different in its monastic set up. As for the differences between Tiantai, Chan, and Jingtu, there are a few actually. What should be clear, however, is that except for Japan, these are not really sects existing as distinct organisations, but rather areas of study. It's similar to how while all South Asian Buddhists are put under the category of Theravada, there are numerous groups that follow different methods and philosophies.

Tiantai has its own practices (e.g. samatha-vipasyana, four samadhis) and doctrines (e.g. three truths, 3000 worlds in a thought). It is a fairly comprehensive teaching of Mahayana that organises all into its own system. Those on this forum who specialise in it can certainly tell more, plus the differences between Tiantai in the various countries.

Chan in China is mostly a general term for Buddhism, and monasteries are usually called Chan temples, but this does not have any effect on what actually happens there. If we were to narrow it down to something actually related to Bodhidharma's traditions, Chan exists primarily as the practice of huatou and the occasional references to Chan stories. If you look at Ting Chen's and Cheng Kuan's manuals, you'll see that they describe Tiantai and classic Indian methods, even though both are nominally Chan. But of course there are teachers who actually specialise in the teachings of the historical Chan School, but again, it is nothing exclusive.

Seon in Korea is heavily influenced by the teachings of Wonhyo, Jinul, and Hyujeong, who are in turn continue the type of Chan propagated by Zongmi, Yongming, and Dahui. It is a combination of Huayan/Hwa'eom theory with Chan/Seon huatou/hwadu practice. But besides that there are individual differences between what a specific teacher or group follows. For instance, Seungsan, founder of the Kwan Um Zen School, taught koan practice (Japanese style) instead of hwadu meditation, while Daehaeng, founder of the Hanmaum Seon Centre, did not teach either hwadu or koan practice.

Zen in Japan is another story. Today they differentiate three branches: Soto, Rinzai, and Obaku. Soto, at least its modern form, is focused on seated meditation as its central method, and doctrinally they concentrate on the works of their Japanese founder. Rinzai and Obaku are not really two schools. On one hand, they have a joint council as a unified representational body, on the other there are several independent monastic groups within Rinzai. They generally follow the methods propagated by Hakuin, i.e. koan practice, that is somewhat separate from the huatou/hwadu style. It is also important to note that in Japan most of the monastics (clergy) are non-celibate, unlike in other countries where they still follow that full Pratimoksha.

Pure Land in China and Korea is not a separate school but, as noted before, a type of practice. What generally unifies Pure Land followers everywhere is the intention to attain birth in Sukhavati, but since practically any Mahayana practitioner can have such a goal, it is not that simple to draw some clear lines. So we could say that those who focus on some kind of practice centred on Amitabha and wish such a birth are those who could be considered Pure Land followers. Japan again presents a unique situation where there are some schools - independent organisations - that explicitly focus on Amitabha and birth in Sukhavati in an exclusive way.
Thanks...yes, it seems this secterian thing is in Japan except may be for the Tendai case, other countries they teach all of these schools method
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Re: is Cheontae/Tendai Seon/Zen and Pureland is the same?

Post by ShineeSeoul »

I just forget this thing, in Vietnam actually, Zen, Pureland and Tiantai are given together, and are not separated, its exception the case of Japan
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Re: is Cheontae/Tendai Seon/Zen and Pureland is the same?

Post by Seishin »

ShineeSeoul wrote:
Seishin wrote:Astus raises a good point. Although the teachings are similar in many ways, if you pick up a zen manual and practice from it, you are not practicing "Pureland Buddhism" or "Tendai Buddhism", and visa versa. There are nuanced differences.
not really....Zen still practice the recitation of Amitabha, they might do it for different reason but they still do it
Nembutsu can be found in Zen, but I wouldn't call zen a pureland school. This is what I mean.
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Re: is Cheontae/Tendai Seon/Zen and Pureland is the same?

Post by ShineeSeoul »

Seishin wrote:
ShineeSeoul wrote:
Seishin wrote:Astus raises a good point. Although the teachings are similar in many ways, if you pick up a zen manual and practice from it, you are not practicing "Pureland Buddhism" or "Tendai Buddhism", and visa versa. There are nuanced differences.
not really....Zen still practice the recitation of Amitabha, they might do it for different reason but they still do it
Nembutsu can be found in Zen, but I wouldn't call zen a pureland school. This is what I mean.
this is more in Japan thing, in other country they are not separated, even in Japan they have Obaku school, which mix both
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Re: is Cheontae/Tendai Seon/Zen and Pureland is the same?

Post by Seishin »

That's not what I'm saying at all. :shrug:
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Re: is Cheontae/Tendai Seon/Zen and Pureland is the same?

Post by Astus »

ShineeSeoul wrote:Zen still practice the recitation of Amitabha, they might do it for different reason but they still do it
The intention matters a lot, even more than the practice itself. If one aims at seeing the nature of mind in this life, that is Chan practice. If one aims at attaining birth in Sukhavati, that is Pure Land practice. And one can do both at the same time as well. But they are still not the same.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: is Cheontae/Tendai Seon/Zen and Pureland is the same?

Post by ShineeSeoul »

Astus wrote:
ShineeSeoul wrote:Zen still practice the recitation of Amitabha, they might do it for different reason but they still do it
The intention matters a lot, even more than the practice itself. If one aims at seeing the nature of mind in this life, that is Chan practice. If one aims at attaining birth in Sukhavati, that is Pure Land practice. And one can do both at the same time as well. But they are still not the same.
still stressing upon differences, its not big deal, you can be in a chan school and recite Amitabha to reborn in Pureland, its all at the end depend on individual intention more
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Re: is Cheontae/Tendai Seon/Zen and Pureland is the same?

Post by Astus »

ShineeSeoul wrote:still stressing upon differences, its not big deal, you can be in a chan school and recite Amitabha to reborn in Pureland, its all at the end depend on individual intention more
I'm not sure I follow. There is no such church as "Chan School", it is not a club one can be a member of, but a teaching and practice one either follows or not.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: is Cheontae/Tendai Seon/Zen and Pureland is the same?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

ShineeSeoul wrote:... still stressing upon differences, its not big deal, you can be in a chan school and recite Amitabha to reborn in Pureland, its all at the end depend on individual intention more
Of course. No-one who has replied to you here has said anything which goes against that. They have tried to explain the differences which do exist, and the reasons for them, but they have not said the differences are are particularly important.

:namaste:
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Re: is Cheontae/Tendai Seon/Zen and Pureland is the same?

Post by Rishin »

Think of it this way.

You can have a sports car, a van, and a 4x4.

Now all of these share similar parts, are defined by a similar concept, and have the function of getting you where you want to go.

You might want a fast journey, so a sports would be suitable. You might have a lot of luggage and so a van would be needed or you might have a particularly tricky road to navigate and so the 4x4 is more suitable.

All of them will let you complete your journey but each one will do it in a slightly different way, even though they are all very similar.

However no matter how fast you drive that van you won't be driving a sports car, and no matter how many hills you try and put that sports car up you won't be in a 4x4. Yet each one will have a wheel, an engine, seats and all the other conditions that are necessary to be a mode of transportation. The difference is that the intention and context behind the construction of each vehicle is a little different.

If we then take that idea and view a living tradition, which all of these schools are, we can see how the temporal and cultural context have shaped them and how they can all share many things but also at the same time be individual and unique entities.



Sorry if that's a ramble and doesn't make sense, I'm still new at this. :smile:
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Re: is Cheontae/Tendai Seon/Zen and Pureland is the same?

Post by sillyrabbit »

As for Cheontae and Seon:

The original Cheontae is the Korean manifestation of Tiantai, and the modern revival Cheontae is similar--there is still reverence for the Lotus Sutra, as well as devotion to Amitabul, Kwanseumbosal, and Daeseijibosal. Also, the vibrant colors in the art of Cheontae is an application of the "samsara and nirvana are one" teaching, stimulating the samsaric sense organs for the stimulation of "nirvanic" aspiration (yep, just made that word up). Seon is more analogous to Ch'an/Zen, and Korean Seon has a more minimalist aesthetic.

To see what I mean about the aesthetics of Cheontae, check out Guinsa Temple in S. Korea:

Image

Image

Image

Image

With a name like "ShineeSeoul", I figured you were pretty interested in these traditions ;)
Namo Amitabha Buddha
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