The acceptability of "Nam"

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Queequeg
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Re: The acceptability of "Nam"

Postby Queequeg » Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:55 am

“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

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Great for solving problems, after it creates a problem."
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Queequeg
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Re: The acceptability of "Nam"

Postby Queequeg » Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:10 am

Masaru, I love you, but kidding or not, I've got to set this straight because people are going to come along who don't know enough to judge what you wrote.

You do understand, when you write "Nichiren again makes it clear that the daimoku must be read properly using the Nipponized Chinese," that there is no basis for you to make this claim. First, I don't even know what "Nipponized Chinese" is. I don't care, but I would caution that some people might take offense at this. But, to the point, there is no way to know for sure how 南無妙法蓮華経 should be read. You also understand that Zhiyi (Tientai) didn't speak Japanese, let alone a Nipponized Chinese - he spoke Chinese. Japan was barely known to his world, if at all. Vasubandhu spoke some ancient North Indian dialect. China was barely known to his world except as some distant land that merchants traveled to, and I don't think Japan was known at all. Neither Zhiyi nor Vasubandhu recited 南無妙法蓮華経 in Nipponized Chinese. Vasubandhu would have recited it in Sanskrit, if anything - Namas Sadharmapundarikasutra - or something like that. If anything, this whole passage undermines any argument for some orthodox reading of 南無妙法蓮華経.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates a problem."
-Modest Mouse

Myoho-Nameless
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Re: The acceptability of "Nam"

Postby Myoho-Nameless » Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:38 am

I just don't belong.

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Re: The acceptability of "Nam"

Postby Masaru » Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:40 am


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Re: The acceptability of "Nam"

Postby Myoho-Nameless » Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:18 am

I am very much tempted to vow to only use "nam" for the rest of my life out of spite for this gross exercise in stupidity....alas, spite is seldom a good frame of mind from which to make decisions.

"Warped Daimoku"?

You do realize that newbies will read this topic right?

To all you scathnams, the Buddha "mu" has not gone anywhere if you pronounce it "nam".
I just don't belong.

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Namu Butsu
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Re: The acceptability of "Nam"

Postby Namu Butsu » Thu Jun 19, 2014 11:39 am

I think Nichiren Buddhist sects would be interesting if it were not for all the bickering and fighting. It seems like wherever you find Nichiren Buddhists, they are arguing amongst themselves. I am sure many other sects do it as well, but it seems to be rampant amongst Nichiren Buddhists. Its sad, but it is what it is.
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Re: The acceptability of "Nam"

Postby nichirenista » Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:24 pm

Queequeg wrote a while ago that the argumentativeness found among Nichiren Buddhists stems from something in the denomination known as "Shakubuku." It's the practice of trying to win other Buddhists to the Nichiren Buddhist path; something that apparently has not happened with you…. lol

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Re: The acceptability of "Nam"

Postby Myoho-Nameless » Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:49 pm

I would rather we bicker than be violent, like other sects have been towards each other.
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Queequeg
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Re: The acceptability of "Nam"

Postby Queequeg » Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:46 am

“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates a problem."
-Modest Mouse

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Re: The acceptability of "Nam"

Postby nichirenista » Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:55 am


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Queequeg
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Re: The acceptability of "Nam"

Postby Queequeg » Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:10 pm

One of the first words my son learned was 'cat.' Why? Because we have a cat. For a while, when we saw a dog he'd say 'cat!' When we went to the zoo, the panda was a cat, so was the seal. When he saw the elephant, it was 'wooooooooohhhh! Cat!'

I think anyone who has studied a subject observes a similar tendency in themselves. In the beginning, everything conforms to some basic rules. As time goes on, we learn about exceptions to rules and learn to recognize distinctions with increasing subtlety. Our views become richer and more nuanced. The world is actually more detailed and infused with more meaning.

Its the same thing with Buddha dharma. A lay person doesn't necessarily appreciate the difference in Nagarjuna's sunyata and the tripitaka teaching on Anatman, but a learned Buddhist scholar can recognize the difference (and similarity) and explain it, discuss it, debate it etcetera.

When Nichiren sent his monk disciples out, they were trained in how to engage adherents of other traditions beyond just proclaiming like a parrot "Lotus Sutra is Best! Your teachings are bunk!" Look at his writings and notice the different messages he sent depending on the recipient. Lay persons are encouraged to have unwavering faith, culminating in the example of the Atsuhara farmers. Monk disciples are trained to be extremely circumscribed and disciplined in their engagement with others. There are a few exceptions - Shijo Kingo, a learned lay person, was instructed on how to respond to his lord, but that instruction was limited.

Anyway, whenour knowledge is limited, we ought to be careful concerning our convictions. The Buddha criticized faith that was too biased and marked by attachment to articles that are not based in personal knowledge. Take notice that faith taught in the Lotus Sutra is adhimukti, a very subtle movement in the mind recognizing some dharma but before the mind can form a conception about it. It is open, as compared to faith that is marked by exclusiveness.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates a problem."
-Modest Mouse

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Re: The acceptability of "Nam"

Postby Masaru » Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:54 pm


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Re: The acceptability of "Nam"

Postby nichirenista » Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:05 am


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Queequeg
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Re: The acceptability of "Nam"

Postby Queequeg » Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:25 pm

“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates a problem."
-Modest Mouse

Masaru
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Re: The acceptability of "Nam"

Postby Masaru » Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:52 pm


reciproque
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Re: The acceptability of "Nam"

Postby reciproque » Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:34 pm

Masaru,

There is no exact pronunciation, but there are current usages encouraged by whatever school one adheres to.

You're assertion that Nichiren supports a Nipponized pronunciation of the Chinese is not justified by your references, nor is it logical.

Vasubandhu and T'ien-t'ai would not have recognized a Japanese recitation of the sutra, nor its title. To be sure, there is no such thing as a universal, linguistic expression for the Title of the Sutra. There are no languages or dialects, no sounds or mixes of sounds, which are exclusively an expression of the meaning and intent of the Sutra (Lotus). Apple is a certain fruit in English, what any other language group wants to call it is just fine - as long as it's in reference to exactly the same thing that people have in their mind when using it.

It seems that you may be thinking that a "strict" discipline must be established on these matters in light of what you assume to be Nichiren's position. However, this is one of those issues where the arguments proliferate rapidly and morph into words and actions of abuse. Orthodoxy is a disease which warps the mind and cuts off the spread of Original Buddhism to those who belong to different cultural and linguistic groups. Actual orthodoxy exist only in the unfettered mind of the Buddha. If we claim to have a role in orthodoxy, our actions will become arrogant cutting off all hope for enlightenment.

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Re: The acceptability of "Nam"

Postby Masaru » Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:04 am


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Queequeg
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Re: The acceptability of "Nam"

Postby Queequeg » Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:07 pm

Masaru and I have been discussing and wrangling for years and even know each other in real life. I'm going to venture that our arguments have a sibling quality to them. Its more smoke than fire.

I am calling him out on his sarcasm, because i dont think it serves the discussion. But sometimes its hard to tell.

This bit of performance art does demonstrate how silly this whole subject is.

Masaru, as far as attacking you, I think I was careful to direct it at the logic and your acts and expressions, and not you personally. If I did, it was by mistake and I apologize.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates a problem."
-Modest Mouse

reciproque
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Re: The acceptability of "Nam"

Postby reciproque » Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:44 pm

Wow! You guys are a polite bunch. Hope this is the norm on this board.

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Queequeg
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Re: The acceptability of "Nam"

Postby Queequeg » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:32 pm

“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates a problem."
-Modest Mouse


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